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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abduction  (Read 40383 times)
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #15 on: May 27th, 2013, 10:46pm »

I have a question. If hypnosis is such a good tool for dealing with traumatic experiences why isn't it used to treat veterans with PTSD? Or rape victims?
Surely knowing and remembering all the details of such events would alow them to heal as quickly as the abductee wouldn't it?
Or would it? Is remembering all the gory details really better than not?
Hypnotists do NOT have full control over the patient. The man who invented modern hypnosis tested that on his own family. The hypnotist does not have to plant the idea of abduction, the person is there to look for an abduction or they would not be there.
Once in the relaxed state they can fall prey to their own imagination. At the front of their mind is the idea of being abducted and as the tech talks to them and guides them to seek details their own mind will supply them.
To study abductions I agree that we need to avoid any furthur injury to the victim. What they remember on their own is what we need to work with. Our curiosity should defer to the health of the person.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #16 on: May 28th, 2013, 02:28am »

Nice hop skip and jump jjflash, it is not complex as there are only three answers, genuine, lies or mistaken circumstances. For instance a dream can be so life like the person actually is genuine in the belief that say abduction happened in their sleep so it is not a lie but mistaken circumstance unless there is proof that the alien carrying out the abduction left evidence then the dream was actually a reality but as science dramatically avoids the ET subject such evidence is lost due to no investigation hence the abductees is labeled a nutcase or liar. now we can grasp the skeptics view when it is bed time abduction as lots of different circumstance come in to play such as was the abductees using recreational drugs or alcohol , was it a dream , nightmare etc so we can understand science being wary of the subject if that was the only abduction scenario . But this is not the only scenario, we have work related abduction, social activity abduction such as sport participation fishing driving riding bicycles yet science avoids the subject WHY?
To quote that only scientific review is the only way forward and that those not following the doctrine are a waste of air space when science refuses to contemplate such is happening is pointless unless you practice what you preach and that clearly is not happening. If say ten people where abducted in Washington all hell would break loose and a mass investigation would come into play yet here we have many tens of thousands of people world wide claiming abduction and what do we get, thatís right NOTHING apart from the average Joe Blogs who is not a scientist or trained investigator who is at least trying to find answers to this massive dreadful scenario. With the expertise that science has at its disposal we should at least be seeing data bases of who, where etc abductions are happening thus giving a true picture of this scenarios seriousness yet we get nothing but people such as your self telling us that UFO investigators are useless due to not following scientific guide lines supplied by people who to be totally honest havenít got a clue and are as useful as a bucket with holes in it unless they actually launch an official transparent investigation using resources the average Joe Blogs does not have access too. The abductee is a victim of crime no matter who carried out the abduction, support is needed such as counseling by people who will not judge or enforce their belief upon the victim and like any other victim they need to see their plight is taken seriously and fully investigated.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #17 on: May 28th, 2013, 04:27am »

on May 28th, 2013, 02:28am, hyundisonata wrote:
Nice hop skip and jump jjflash, it is not complex as there are only three answers, genuine, lies or mistaken circumstances. For instance a dream can be so life like the person actually is genuine in the belief that say abduction happened in their sleep so it is not a lie but mistaken circumstance unless there is proof that the alien carrying out the abduction left evidence then the dream was actually a reality but as science dramatically avoids the ET subject such evidence is lost due to no investigation hence the abductees is labeled a nutcase or liar. now we can grasp the skeptics view when it is bed time abduction as lots of different circumstance come in to play such as was the abductees using recreational drugs or alcohol , was it a dream , nightmare etc so we can understand science being wary of the subject if that was the only abduction scenario . But this is not the only scenario, we have work related abduction, social activity abduction such as sport participation fishing driving riding bicycles yet science avoids the subject WHY?
To quote that only scientific review is the only way forward and that those not following the doctrine are a waste of air space when science refuses to contemplate such is happening is pointless unless you practice what you preach and that clearly is not happening. If say ten people where abducted in Washington all hell would break loose and a mass investigation would come into play yet here we have many tens of thousands of people world wide claiming abduction and what do we get, thatís right NOTHING apart from the average Joe Blogs who is not a scientist or trained investigator who is at least trying to find answers to this massive dreadful scenario. With the expertise that science has at its disposal we should at least be seeing data bases of who, where etc abductions are happening thus giving a true picture of this scenarios seriousness yet we get nothing but people such as your self telling us that UFO investigators are useless due to not following scientific guide lines supplied by people who to be totally honest havenít got a clue and are as useful as a bucket with holes in it unless they actually launch an official transparent investigation using resources the average Joe Blogs does not have access too. The abductee is a victim of crime no matter who carried out the abduction, support is needed such as counseling by people who will not judge or enforce their belief upon the victim and like any other victim they need to see their plight is taken seriously and fully investigated.


Incisive, well reasoned post, Hyundisonata! Except to say that a bucket with holes is quite useful: you can fill it with water, hang it high and take a nice shower underneath.

cheesy


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #18 on: May 28th, 2013, 05:43am »

on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
Thanks, skizicks, purr and bewildered! I am glad you found the article of interest.



Sure, purr. Some might find the following links helpful:

Introduction to the Scientific Method, courtesy Colby College.

Defining Critical Thinking, one of many thought provocative and informative articles located on the site of The Critical Thinking Community, which consists of a foundation and center dedicated to the promotion of critical thinking and its benefits.


Thanks for the links, Jjflash. Still, referring back to my question about 'fleshing' out scientific method from general overview to any specific/detailed approach you may propose: you have not clarified yet how to apply the Method to folks coming out with an abduction account, to let's say their minister, general practitioner, police constable, a psychologist or (sorry Bewildered) calling in the local UFO expert. What assistance by (presumably) a team of scientists should be offered, and how to go about contacting them? Flesh out meant: be as precise as you can!


on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
That of course presents challenges but is very important from several perspectives. I think one perspective is that it depends on what is trying to be accomplished. Does a witness want to obtain emotional support or professional investigation? The two are different services and should be sought (and provided) differently.


Agreed. From my reading an alleged abductee will need support first, and competent investigation shortly after. But we ought to be sensitive to individual needs.


on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
I also think there are, essentially, three kinds of information: One, that which can be verified as accurate, two, that which has been confirmed to be false and can be discarded, and, three, that which requires suspension of judgment pending further competent investigation. If those are applied, it does not matter if the testimony and claims are offered by self-described abductees, self-described mind control victims, former CIA personnel or anyone else Ė it only matters that we treat each testimony objectively pending further verification (or lack thereof).


Again, I agree, but perhaps you make it sound too easy. Try making that determination for any thousand cases without trace evidence, without clear symptoms of psychopathology, resting on a story which remains consistent (in regard to the alien abduction experience). Your team of scientists will be pulling their hair, I predict they will be quite bald.


on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
Actually, it was my concern for the witness that added to my current stances on the topics. I was appalled at their treatment by people claiming to be helpful. That led to my interests in human rights violations concerning human research subjects.


What the bleep are you talking about, Jj?! I never heard of human rights being violated of abductees! (Which Human Rights exactly?) I can imagine claims of malpractice, breaches of medical ethics (say: the Jacobs - Woods bodged regression sessions), and the general Wild Wild West situation in UFO 'expertise'. Abductees have no standard care to rely on. I also see a risk of Civil Rights infringed, if Psychiatry would use Conspiracist / UFO / Abduction beliefs BY THEMSELVES as indicators of serious mental illness. (New Zealand has flirted with this notion.)


on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
Services provided by psychiatric professionals would be very helpful. I think that is the case whether witnesses are seeking emotional support or scientific investigation, as mental health pros can of course assist with either. I am of the opinion that emotional trauma is both the most relevant and poorly understood aspect of the abduction phenom, at least poorly understood among members of the UFO community.


Thanks to Obamacare in the US, and a similar HC system introduced ten years earlier in my country, The Netherlands, you might say that anyone suffering from mental problems (PTSD whatever the cause) has some (partially free) recourse in both lands to the mental health profession. I agree there is a need for this service to be available. My caveat: a phenomenon-specific (=Abduction related) mechanism needs to be devised excluding Psychiatrists from 'treating' or 'diagnosing' the abduction experience ITSELF as psychopathology. Like member Hyundisonata says: psychiatrists are not trained to determine reality/lack thereof of alien abduction or the existence of aliens. That's simply beyond their competence. Naturally abductees will vary widely, with some preferring a Psychologist, some free of psychiatric symptoms, so they will enter straight into the investigative process. (Some will just join UFO Casebook, and be welcomed in this here forum smiley !!)


on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
I also think biologists and professionals who contribute to such specialized services as crime scene investigation would be extremely helpful. Self-proclaimed abduction researchers have missed the proverbial boat on collecting DNA evidence, and it is only a matter of time until they will have to account for it. Proper testing would plain and simply confirm or invalidate some of the current claims, and should be implemented, or, at the least, those failing to do so while claiming to be conducting scientific investigation should be held accountable.


I feel like accusing you of scientific optimism, Jjflash. Such UFO dream teams are extremely rarified. Sure I want them in the field, but the real world status quo amounts to sites like these, many 'experts' (full gamut of accreditation), UFO self-help groups, and MUFON like organizations. For now the UFO Community, flaws and all, is the best help for abductees on offer.

And before you can reasonably send in forensic scientists, playing CSI (funding... funding), you must formulate an objective standard of extraterrestrial DNA trace. Only then one may differentiate between merely earthly/human DNA presence, and finding ET was here.


on May 27th, 2013, 2:15pm, jjflash wrote:
What do you think, purr?


I think a lot of work yet needs to be done before abductees are treated with the dignity, fairness and quality of care their challenging experience merits.


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #19 on: May 28th, 2013, 06:45am »

on May 27th, 2013, 10:46pm, skizicks wrote:
I have a question. If hypnosis is such a good tool for dealing with traumatic experiences why isn't it used to treat veterans with PTSD? Or rape victims?
Surely knowing and remembering all the details of such events would alow them to heal as quickly as the abductee wouldn't it?
Or would it? Is remembering all the gory details really better than not?
Hypnotists do NOT have full control over the patient. The man who invented modern hypnosis tested that on his own family. The hypnotist does not have to plant the idea of abduction, the person is there to look for an abduction or they would not be there.
Once in the relaxed state they can fall prey to their own imagination. At the front of their mind is the idea of being abducted and as the tech talks to them and guides them to seek details their own mind will supply them.
To study abductions I agree that we need to avoid any furthur injury to the victim. What they remember on their own is what we need to work with. Our curiosity should defer to the health of the person.


There are far too many unanswered questions and murky areas for hypnosis to be of any value beyond self-help schemes like smoking cessation, changing other habits, etc. Even then it is not a cure-all.

@purr: You bring up something very important: some of the most plausible, cogent experiences offer absolutely nothing to observe, measure, or even look at except for the behavior of the abductee. This is why I look at therapy as the first line of defense and response to anyone who is suffering trauma from an abduction experience.

Abductees aren't "sick" nor are they "crazy." Many are dealing with the psychopathological side-effects of their experience. Our psychological well-being matters just as much as our physical health, and the two are typically intertwined.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #20 on: May 28th, 2013, 2:46pm »

on May 28th, 2013, 02:28am, hyundisonata wrote:
Nice hop skip and jump jjflash, it is not complex as there are only three answers, genuine, lies or mistaken circumstances. For instance a dream can be so life like the person actually is genuine in the belief that say abduction happened in their sleep so it is not a lie but mistaken circumstance unless there is proof that the alien carrying out the abduction left evidence then the dream was actually a reality but as science dramatically avoids the ET subject such evidence is lost due to no investigation hence the abductees is labeled a nutcase or liar. now we can grasp the skeptics view when it is bed time abduction as lots of different circumstance come in to play such as was the abductees using recreational drugs or alcohol , was it a dream , nightmare etc so we can understand science being wary of the subject if that was the only abduction scenario . But this is not the only scenario, we have work related abduction, social activity abduction such as sport participation fishing driving riding bicycles yet science avoids the subject WHY?
To quote that only scientific review is the only way forward and that those not following the doctrine are a waste of air space when science refuses to contemplate such is happening is pointless unless you practice what you preach and that clearly is not happening. If say ten people where abducted in Washington all hell would break loose and a mass investigation would come into play yet here we have many tens of thousands of people world wide claiming abduction and what do we get, thatís right NOTHING apart from the average Joe Blogs who is not a scientist or trained investigator who is at least trying to find answers to this massive dreadful scenario. With the expertise that science has at its disposal we should at least be seeing data bases of who, where etc abductions are happening thus giving a true picture of this scenarios seriousness yet we get nothing but people such as your self telling us that UFO investigators are useless due to not following scientific guide lines supplied by people who to be totally honest havenít got a clue and are as useful as a bucket with holes in it unless they actually launch an official transparent investigation using resources the average Joe Blogs does not have access too. The abductee is a victim of crime no matter who carried out the abduction, support is needed such as counseling by people who will not judge or enforce their belief upon the victim and like any other victim they need to see their plight is taken seriously and fully investigated.


WOW, great post....!
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #21 on: May 28th, 2013, 6:05pm »

It appears there are no less than three issues being discussed simultaneously:

--> Research of alleged alien abduction, particularly that which is misrepresented as scientific when it is not, which was a large part of my original point.

--> The possible existence of alien abduction in an objective reality, and...

--> How scientists and researchers might measure and validate or invalidate such reported experiences.

In proceeding, I would find it helpful if some discussion participants would quote and paraphrase me more accurately. Several times I have been attributed with making statements and suggestions I simply did not make, so, please, be a bit more careful when concluding what you think I wrote. Thank you.

I would also find it helpful if my original message is kept in its intended context; the article posted dealt with research of alleged alien abduction, particularly unscrupulous research incorrectly presented as scientific investigation. While others might understandably migrate the discussion to various related considerations, please keep my initial points in context. Specifically, I never claimed to be designing or presenting research methodology. As a matter of fact, the initial article directly pointed out that it is not my responsibility or the responsibility of anyone else to invalidate a specific hypothesis, but the responsibility of researchers claiming to be conducting scientific investigation to follow proper due process with their hypotheses.

Please note that neither did I attempt to impose scientifically-based restrictions on any of your opinions, the validity of any of your experiences nor the research conducted by any members of the UFO community; I pointed out that if individuals such as David Jacobs and organizations such as MUFON continue to market their work as scientific investigation, they have responsibilities to adhere to proper scientific protocol. Please make an effort to accurately differentiate between one issue and another, and keep such things in context. Thank you.

on May 27th, 2013, 9:06pm, bewildered wrote:
Thanks for the link to The Critical Thinking Community, jjflash. I had no idea that such an organization existed - and online membership is complimentary, too! I'm looking forward to accessing their educational materials, as critical thinking is of paramount importance to my major. As I've learned from many hours spent in the programming lab, the most difficult part of problem-solving lies in navigating your own bias, perception, and cognitive "quirks." The computer is always correct...it's the human that has the issues. wink


You are welcome. Glad you found it useful.

on May 27th, 2013, 10:46pm, skizicks wrote:
I have a question. If hypnosis is such a good tool for dealing with traumatic experiences why isn't it used to treat veterans with PTSD? Or rape victims?
Surely knowing and remembering all the details of such events would alow them to heal as quickly as the abductee wouldn't it?
Or would it? Is remembering all the gory details really better than not?
Hypnotists do NOT have full control over the patient. The man who invented modern hypnosis tested that on his own family. The hypnotist does not have to plant the idea of abduction, the person is there to look for an abduction or they would not be there.
Once in the relaxed state they can fall prey to their own imagination. At the front of their mind is the idea of being abducted and as the tech talks to them and guides them to seek details their own mind will supply them.
To study abductions I agree that we need to avoid any furthur injury to the victim. What they remember on their own is what we need to work with. Our curiosity should defer to the health of the person.


Reasonable points and perspectives, sir.

on May 28th, 2013, 02:28am, hyundisonata wrote:
Nice hop skip and jump jjflash, it is not complex as there are only three answers, genuine, lies or mistaken circumstances. For instance a dream can be so life like the person actually is genuine in the belief that say abduction happened in their sleep so it is not a lie but mistaken circumstance unless there is proof that the alien carrying out the abduction left evidence then the dream was actually a reality but as science dramatically avoids the ET subject such evidence is lost due to no investigation hence the abductees is labeled a nutcase or liar. now we can grasp the skeptics view when it is bed time abduction as lots of different circumstance come in to play such as was the abductees using recreational drugs or alcohol , was it a dream , nightmare etc so we can understand science being wary of the subject if that was the only abduction scenario . But this is not the only scenario, we have work related abduction, social activity abduction such as sport participation fishing driving riding bicycles yet science avoids the subject WHY?
To quote that only scientific review is the only way forward and that those not following the doctrine are a waste of air space when science refuses to contemplate such is happening is pointless unless you practice what you preach and that clearly is not happening. If say ten people where abducted in Washington all hell would break loose and a mass investigation would come into play yet here we have many tens of thousands of people world wide claiming abduction and what do we get, thatís right NOTHING apart from the average Joe Blogs who is not a scientist or trained investigator who is at least trying to find answers to this massive dreadful scenario. With the expertise that science has at its disposal we should at least be seeing data bases of who, where etc abductions are happening thus giving a true picture of this scenarios seriousness yet we get nothing but people such as your self telling us that UFO investigators are useless due to not following scientific guide lines supplied by people who to be totally honest havenít got a clue and are as useful as a bucket with holes in it unless they actually launch an official transparent investigation using resources the average Joe Blogs does not have access too. The abductee is a victim of crime no matter who carried out the abduction, support is needed such as counseling by people who will not judge or enforce their belief upon the victim and like any other victim they need to see their plight is taken seriously and fully investigated.


I generally disagree with your lines of reasoning, H. You have your opinions, I have mine and all that.

Perhaps more to the issues at hand, I am once again moved to point out people are entitled to believe anything they want and conduct research as they choose, but they are not entitled to call it science if it does not meet certain criteria. That was my original point, and debating the possible objective reality of alleged alien abduction is entirely a different issue, one, of which I interpret you nonetheless would like me to offer my opinions.

I suspect there may be some events of interest at the heart of what became known as the abduction phenomenon. I must seriously question, however, if people are literally being kidnapped by interplanetary visitors, much less on the scale Jacobs and Hopkins suggested. I would require much more verifiable evidence in order to accept such a conclusion.

I think the reason the extraterrestrial hypothesis for alien abduction remains outside the scope of scientific confirmation is simple: it is wrong. I think there are other explanations for the fantastic reports, and in some cases those explanations may indeed be fantastic, 'Alice in Wonderland'-type experiences themselves, but I doubt those explanations involve literal extraterrestrials.

You will recall, H, that I wrote that I think there are basically three kinds of information: One, that which can be verified as accurate, two, that which has been confirmed to be false and can be discarded, and, three, that which requires suspension of judgment pending further competent investigation. I would therefore say that witness testimonies of alien abduction fall into category three. More specifically, I do not have enough data to form an absolute conclusion. You asked me what I think, however, or at least I interpreted that you did, so I told you.

Please note the possible objective reality of literal alien abduction can only be a matter of testimony and opinion, at least on a public scale, as it cannot yet be verified. My point being that, while considering its possibilities might be interesting, to debate it at passionate length cannot result in any final resolution: it will continue to be choices of speculative opinion pending further competent investigation. I nonetheless empathize with you and your experiences, H, and I hope you find peace with it all.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #22 on: May 28th, 2013, 6:26pm »

on May 28th, 2013, 05:43am, purr wrote:
Thanks for the links, Jjflash. Still, referring back to my question about 'fleshing' out scientific method from general overview to any specific/detailed approach you may propose: you have not clarified yet how to apply the Method to folks coming out with an abduction account... What assistance by (presumably) a team of scientists should be offered, and how to go about contacting them? Flesh out meant: be as precise as you can!


It was never my intent to offer or clarify any such method, purr. My article addressed unscrupulous research misrepresented as scientific investigation. It is not my responsibility to analyze anyone's claims or design related research methodology, but the responsibilities of researchers claiming to conduct scientific investigations to do so.

Concerning your interests, however, purr, you might choose to locate some of the comments and material published by microbiologist Dr. Tyler Kokjohn. He has repeatedly explained manners potential DNA evidence could be collected and analyzed in very practical and affordable manners. If literal aliens are interacting with people, much less impregnating them and such, obtaining evidence thereof would be relatively simple at this point in the evolution of human technology and forensic capabilities. He has written and commented about that on several sites, including my blogs, where there are also videos explaining such. You or others might also find Dr. Kokjohn's recent podcast discussion on Binnall of America of interest. The doctor discussed at length how scientific investigation could be applied to ufology, as well as several other topics of potential interest. I hope that is helpful.

on May 28th, 2013, 05:43am, purr wrote:
What the bleep are you talking about, Jj?! I never heard of human rights being violated of abductees! (Which Human Rights exactly?)


I did not write ďhuman rights being violated of abductees.Ē I wrote that I was appalled at the way abductees were treated by people claiming to be helpful. I then wrote, ďThat led to my interests in human rights violations concerning human research subjects.Ē

My interest in such ufology cases as Woods and Haley dovetailed with my interest in the intelligence community. The extents the two communities mirror one another in their uses and explorations of hypnosis causes them to be virtually indistinguishable at times. Similar lines of interest could grow out of events surrounding Mark Schwartz and Castlewood Treatment Center, a saga I would highly recommend those check out with interests in hypnosis, false memories, exploitation of vulnerable demographics and similar such subject matter.

on May 28th, 2013, 05:43am, purr wrote:
I feel like accusing you of scientific optimism, Jjflash. Such UFO dream teams are extremely rarified. Sure I want them in the field, but the real world status quo amounts to sites like these, many 'experts' (full gamut of accreditation), UFO self-help groups, and MUFON like organizations. For now the UFO Community, flaws and all, is the best help for abductees on offer.

And before you can reasonably send in forensic scientists, playing CSI (funding... funding), you must formulate an objective standard of extraterrestrial DNA trace. Only then one may differentiate between merely earthly/human DNA presence, and finding ET was here.


Qualified experts disagree. The recent work on Ata contributed by Dr. Nolan demonstrated such capabilities. Similarly, Dr. Kokjohn indicated DNA evidence collection in cases of alleged alien abduction is not only possible, but the funding requirements have largely been misrepresented as more costly than is actually true. Dr. Kokjohn's related comments can be viewed at such links as Science versus sensationalism, part 3 of 4: A possible dead alien, as well as the fourth part in the series, Aliens and evidence. He also recently authored Science Catches Up With Ufology: The Unexamined Hypothesis, explaining how researchers such as David Jacobs, Barbara Lamb and Delores Cannon now have opportunities to extensively test their yet unsubstantiated hypotheses of ET-human hybrid breeding programs, if they desire to do so.

My personal opinion, purr, if helpful to know, is that there may very well be something of interest at the core of reported high strangeness. I am confident, however, that exploitation of vulnerable individuals and misrepresentation of what may actually be taking place is harmful from many perspectives; I am confident the UFO community has largely been duped by a number of people with a number of deceptive agendas. I am of the opinion that it has gone on to such an extent that those among us who promote careful fact checking and critical thinking are quickly and incorrectly labeled unreasonable debunkers. I think that evolved to be the prevailing culture because critical thinking is the nemesis of the deceivers, and, as stated in the article, the less educated and poorly informed are targeted for exploitation. The resulting dynamics are often not conducive to revealing or discussing actuality.

on May 28th, 2013, 06:45am, bewildered wrote:
...I look at therapy as the first line of defense and response to anyone who is suffering trauma from an abduction experience.


That's a reasonable perspective. I would agree that mental health professionals have a great deal to contribute to ufology. The reported abduction-experiences in themselves are frequently described as traumatic, and treatment would therefore logically apply. A reasonable perspective on the situation might include that people who disagree either fail to understand or underestimate the significance of the symptoms of emotional traumata, which, some will recall, I identified as, in my opinion, among the most relevant and least understood aspects of the abduction phenom.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #23 on: May 28th, 2013, 8:01pm »

Perhaps we should take a page from the investigation of a sex crime.
Let's consider that step one in any investigation of an abduction is an interview by a trained therapist to get a "feel", for lack of a better term, of the victims mental health, other than the abduction effects, and assess their voracity.
Two would take place if the therapist gives the victim a clean bill of mental health. This would be a physical examination of the site and the victim. Someone with at least some training in evidence gathering goes over the site and takes samples of the victim.
Then you need a lab of some kind to look at anything found to look for anomilies.
Establish it did happen as the victim says, that there is supporting physical evidence, and then maybe try to make sense of what was found.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #24 on: May 28th, 2013, 8:13pm »

on May 28th, 2013, 8:01pm, skizicks wrote:
Perhaps we should take a page from the investigation of a sex crime.
Let's consider that step one in any investigation of an abduction is an interview by a trained therapist to get a "feel", for lack of a better term, of the victims mental health, other than the abduction effects, and assess their voracity.
Two would take place if the therapist gives the victim a clean bill of mental health. This would be a physical examination of the site and the victim. Someone with at least some training in evidence gathering goes over the site and takes samples of the victim.
Then you need a lab of some kind to look at anything found to look for anomilies.
Establish it did happen as the victim says, that there is supporting physical evidence, and then maybe try to make sense of what was found.


To follow your crime analogy: many (actually a majority) of abduction accounts involve reporting delays, call it a Cold Case structure. Where memories of alleged alien abduction come back after years or decades.

I am trying to ask Jjflash, I don't mind asking all posters, Skizicks. How to formulate a scientific approach to an anekdote driven phenomenon?


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #25 on: May 29th, 2013, 2:38pm »

on May 28th, 2013, 8:13pm, purr wrote:
To follow your crime analogy: many (actually a majority) of abduction accounts involve reporting delays, call it a Cold Case structure. Where memories of alleged alien abduction come back after years or decades.

I am trying to ask Jjflash, I don't mind asking all posters, Skizicks. How to formulate a scientific approach to an anekdote driven phenomenon?


purr


Microbiologist Dr. Tyler Kokjohn recently wrote in his article, The Unexamined Hypothesis:

For decades, hypotheses have explained alien abductions and other interactions variously as nefarious conspiracies against all humankind, genetic hybridization programs and interventions to save us from destruction. New developments in DNA sequencing technology and biotechnology now enable direct testing of claims regarding modifications to the human genome, involuntary alien initiated and terminated pregnancies, and acquisition of disease resistance. That means investigators like Dr. David Jacobs, Barbara Lamb and Dolores Cannon will at last be able to provide the hard DNA or biochemical evidence confirming that their ideas have a medical basis.

The ever-evolving and expanding claims are astonishing and anyone able to corroborate them with reliable scientific data would certainly achieve fame and fortune. The burden of proof is on them, yet the investigators exhibit little inclination to employ the analysis tools now available to clinch the conclusive evidence. Where is the objective verification for alien initiated and terminated pregnancies? Because fetal cells persist in the mother decades after pregnancy (3), this has become an experimentally approachable question for Dr. Jacobs to explore. Dolores Cannon maintains that the DNA of the Ďthird wave of volunteersí is more Ďadvancedí and we are moving toward a future where we cannot get sick. Why then do we still have outbreaks of old infectious disease foes like cholera and measles (4, 5) in children? If the DNA itself has been altered or Ďjunkí sequences are being utilized in new ways as she claims, genetic analyses could reveal the underlying changes. Barbara Lamb has announced she knows the identities of human-alien hybrids. Why not perform a simple genetic profile test on them and see whether the unequivocal assertions stand up to scientific scrutiny?

Why some investigators seem reluctant to even mention the fact that their wild ideas could be swiftly confirmed, or refuted, by direct experiment is understandable. Should hard genetic and biochemical data ever confront the ornate hypotheses so carefully elaborated over decades of time, it is absolutely clear some wonít survive the test. Letís face it, Dr. Greer also offers a superb example of an investigator who saw his beautiful, eminently marketable hypothesis go down in flames once he allowed it to be examined scientifically.

..................................................................

I am suggesting the UFO community collectively make a more intentional effort to reject poor research, particularly when misrepresented as scientifically credible, while simultaneously making a more intentional effort to accept sound lines of reasoning. Accurate identification of fact and fiction is much more part of the solution than the problem. Such actions advance the search for truth while moving closer to actually identifying the factors involved in the abduction phenomenon.
« Last Edit: May 29th, 2013, 2:39pm by jjflash » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #26 on: May 29th, 2013, 3:27pm »

on May 28th, 2013, 8:13pm, purr wrote:
How to formulate a scientific approach to an anekdote driven phenomenon?


purr


Something is anecdotal only if it cannot be corroborated by empirical evidence. I apologize if I seem somewhat robotic on that point, purr, but since my personal interests and education lie in that direction (I aspire to code applications that permit a robotic machine to navigate terrain in an "intelligent" manner, among other things), I fear that sometimes I maintain a white-knuckled grip on the heuristics of algorithmic evaluation and design. grin

Until empirical evidence can be received through an intake process, qualified forensic investigators can only search for it. Science can do nothing with anecdotes. Because of this reality, anyone who claims to have been abducted must be willing to fully cooperate with investigators if they wish to advance human understanding of this complex of allied phenomena.

If there is any hesitation preventing that from occurring, our understanding will never advance.
« Last Edit: May 29th, 2013, 3:28pm by bewildered » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #27 on: May 29th, 2013, 3:55pm »

on May 29th, 2013, 2:38pm, jjflash wrote:
Why some investigators seem reluctant to even mention the fact that their wild ideas could be swiftly confirmed, or refuted, by direct experiment is understandable. Should hard genetic and biochemical data ever confront the ornate hypotheses so carefully elaborated over decades of time, it is absolutely clear some wonít survive the test. Letís face it, Dr. Greer also offers a superb example of an investigator who saw his beautiful, eminently marketable hypothesis go down in flames once he allowed it to be examined scientifically.

..................................................................

I am suggesting the UFO community collectively make a more intentional effort to reject poor research, particularly when misrepresented as scientifically credible, while simultaneously making a more intentional effort to accept sound lines of reasoning. Accurate identification of fact and fiction is much more part of the solution than the problem. Such actions advance the search for truth while moving closer to actually identifying the factors involved in the abduction phenomenon.


Bravo, jjflash. I took the liberty of applying bold emphasis to what I feel is the ultimate "point" of your article.

We each possess certain talents and individual strengths. Some people are idea-generators, others are idea-refiners, and then there are those who implement those ideas. As for myself, as I read jj's original article my mind immediately began generating the foundation of an algorithm that would possibly satisfy the requirements of a scientific intake process for people who claim to have been abducted by non-human and paranormal causative agents.

Like the solving of a mathematical expression or equation, we establish an order of operations. Without that, the problem-solving process is meaningless; problem-solving is one of the cornerstones of scientific pursuit. My rough outline looks something like this:

Does the alleged abductee want help? If yes, then:

The abductee should seek out qualified therapeutic assistance as soon as possible.

If no, then:

No further action is required.

Does the therapist feel forensic investigation is called for? If yes, then:

The appropriate authorities and/or experts are consulted.

If no, then:

The alleged abductee continues with the therapeutic regimen. I cannot stress this enough: everyone's mental and emotional well-being are of critical importance. Imagine, for a moment, all of the wasted human potential that occurs in this post-modern world our species has created. Everyone is equally important, and life is precious.

If forensic investigation occurs, all parties involved with the alleged abductee should cooperate fully. There is of course much more to this, but I think this will suffice as a rough framework. The alleged abductee is the "center" of this methodology...because we are talking about someone's life, after all. Scientific pursuit and adherence to the highest professional and ethical standards is the only acceptable route to take, in my opinion.

In the event that an investigation of an alleged abduction occurs, the therapist, along with the abductee, should be kept "in the loop" and informed of progress. I think the involvement of the therapist in this process is critical, because their primary concern is for their client, the abductee. Because of their foundational level of involvement, I imagine that the therapist should be a clinical psychologist. I suppose a psychiatrist could also be the contact person, but modern psychiatry in some ways (this is only my opinion, so I'm not attempting to assert this as a "fact") has devolved into nothing more than a psychotropic medication consultant for clinical psychologists and their mental health practices. This is why I'm inclined to favor a psychologist as the "first line of defense" for an abductee.
« Last Edit: May 29th, 2013, 4:16pm by bewildered » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #28 on: May 29th, 2013, 9:12pm »

A man steps forward and claims he killed someone a few days ago. If he offers some information that leads to a body or physical evidence that a crime took place he could well end up in prison. But, if he claims such a crime and the police can find no evidence what so ever of such a crime the man is ignored as a crank.
Those same standards need to be applied to an abduction report. The interview at the begining should determine of further work is worth the effort.
memories that are "discovered" well after the fact are worthless. Digging through that person's mind has little chance of finding real proof and a good chance of causing harm to the person.
With all do respect we do not need more vague stories of half remembered nightmares. The key is physical proof.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #29 on: May 30th, 2013, 01:45am »

The difference being Skizicks is that both instances would be fully investigated by a competent body but when it comes to ET this does not happen so all we are left with is the storyís unless the abductee manages to get ETs head on a plate. Here in the UK even the police are ignored when it comes to ET so what chance does the average person on the street have apart from such as Greer or Nick Pope who we all know are only in it for the cash. About the only reliable evidence to prove or come close to proving abduction is genuine lies buried in the police archives regarding this case, http://www.factfictionandconjecture.ca/files/robert_taylor.html
This abduction was fully investigated by the police and forensic samples where taken, now due to advances in science and technology and as this evidence should still be available why the hell has no one reopened this case, who is blocking such from being brought into the public eye. Itís not all cut and dry and we could demand this and that until the cows come home but until the government get off their fat bums and launch an open investigation then anything else is pointless and worthless apart from telling a good story in the hope some people will start to listen.
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