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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abduction  (Read 41928 times)
drwu23
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #165 on: Mar 6th, 2014, 09:10am »

on Mar 5th, 2014, 6:40pm, Flat wrote:
While David Jacobs and the late Bud Hopkins promote the idea of hybrids based upon the reports of numerous contactees, that may not literally be the case. If there really is tampering going on with a percentage of the population, it could be confined to manipulating our DNA, all within the confines of what could happen through normal evolution. Remember that evolution is actually a process that allows various species to adapt to ever changing conditions.

The idea of merging DNA with a totally alien species seems unlikely, so skepticism of this idea seems justified. However, if ET is here, they surely wouldn't make repeated trips just to sight see. We could choose to ignore all the reports and walk away, but it does make sense that if Part 1 is true, that aliens are here, then it's possible that Part 2 is also true, that they are up to something. Surely, whatever their agenda, it would be for their benefit first, and if we're lucky, ours also. We shouldn't just hope for the best. The subject deserves to be studied with an open mind.

Flat

I agree that if they are changing dna by just rearranging our own dna it would be very difficult to tell unless one had a baseline of these 'hybrids'.
As to 'alien' motivations for coming here , there could be many reasons for visiting and not necessarily any complex agenda. If they have achieved an easy method of interstellar travel they could be simply 'curious' about humans and might be visiting any number of planets.

The dna and human genetic manipulation 'theory' seems unlikely to me for the reasons many have proposed over the years. Could alien dna even mesh with ours? If they are advanced as we assume why the need to even do this? Can't they fix any problem they might have without human dna? Why create a hybrid at all? And how does that fit in with all the other bizarre activity attributed to the 'aliens'?

To me this is not a clear case of ET with an agenda to create hybrids.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #166 on: Mar 6th, 2014, 12:50pm »

on Mar 6th, 2014, 09:10am, drwu23 wrote:
I agree that if they are changing dna by just rearranging our own dna it would be very difficult to tell unless one had a baseline of these 'hybrids'.
As to 'alien' motivations for coming here , there could be many reasons for visiting and not necessarily any complex agenda. If they have achieved an easy method of interstellar travel they could be simply 'curious' about humans and might be visiting any number of planets.

We just don't know. There are many possibilities, and some are not palatable. We can't assume that "they are not a threat", as was the official line many years ago. How can anyone know that?

Quote:
The dna and human genetic manipulation 'theory' seems unlikely to me for the reasons many have proposed over the years. Could alien dna even mesh with ours? If they are advanced as we assume why the need to even do this? Can't they fix any problem they might have without human dna? Why create a hybrid at all? And how does that fit in with all the other bizarre activity attributed to the 'aliens'?

To me this is not a clear case of ET with an agenda to create hybrids.

As I said earlier, I agree that merging alien DNA with ours sounds unlikely. I think people tend to come up with an explanation for the unknown rather than deal with a myriad of possibilities. Perhaps the hybrid idea that is said to be commonly reported is the result of inadvertently leading the witness.

The disturbing message is that according to Hopkins and Jacobs, many abductees have claimed that samples were taken. In fact, one of the earliest cases, the Hills case, reported the same thing, and Hopkins and Jacobs were not involved with that one. People have consistently testified that this is happening, and while I agree that the best scientific procedures probably have not been followed by these guys, there is at least one case, the grandaddy of them all, that suggests this may be true. I just wouldn't rule it out.

Why so many samples would be needed is an open question, but I believe it would be an important clue for those who are experts in the field.

Flat

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #167 on: Mar 8th, 2014, 8:47pm »

on Mar 5th, 2014, 6:40pm, Flat wrote:
The idea of merging DNA with a totally alien species seems unlikely, so skepticism of this idea seems justified. However, if ET is here, they surely wouldn't make repeated trips just to sight see. We could choose to ignore all the reports and walk away, but it does make sense that if Part 1 is true, that aliens are here, then it's possible that Part 2 is also true, that they are up to something. Surely, whatever their agenda, it would be for their benefit first, and if we're lucky, ours also. We shouldn't just hope for the best. The subject deserves to be studied with an open mind.
Flat


One thing I have found in the UFO arena is that pretty much everyone connects their own Dots-of-Logic differently.

Some people may connect their Dots-of-Logic in a manner similar to this:

1. Thousands of UFO reports = Some may be true
2. If true, what do they want?: Take over Earth, Destroy us, Study us, Observe us?
3. Since we have not seen them try to Take over or Destroy us: Reports seem to favor = Study and/or Observe
4. In order to Study or Observe: Which would be more informative: To Observe from afar or to Abduct and study up close?
5. Reports seem to favor both, Observe from afar & Abduct.
6. Are there Reports that would tend to confirm that UFO's may have Observed from afar? = YES, every time someone sees a UFO, they could possibly be Observing us.
7. Are there Reports that would tend to confirm that abductions have taken place? = YES, the Hills, Travis Walton, Charlie Parker, etc.
8. Has Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs EVER spoke with people who claimed to be abducted? = YES
9. Is there evidence proving that ALL of those people are lying?
10. Are Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs Scientists? = No, they are Amateurs or Self-taught.
11. Can Amateurs or people who are Self-taught ever be successful or make some correct Decisions? = Bill Gates & Steve Jobs did!
12. Did Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs make mistakes? = Probably!

13. If a scientist makes some mistakes does it nullify all their findings or make everything they did suspect?
14. Is it possible that some of the information gathered by Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs is correct and viable?

There are some people who have their connect the Dots-of-Logic in a different manner, as their answer to 13. is always: "YES" and their answer to 14. is always: "NO".


Logic is something that cannot be taught. And sadly, Logic in the hands of a Prosecutor can be bent and shaped into "proving" or "disproving" pretty much anything they want, just like a debunker...

Each of us need to use our own values, investigations and experiences in connecting our own Dots-of-Logic and not take the words of those who shout the loudest as the truth.



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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #168 on: Mar 9th, 2014, 5:51pm »

Very true, Mythos. We're on our own to figure it out. For that reason I like to hear what others have to say, from both sides, even though I'm firmly grounded on the believers side.

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #169 on: Mar 10th, 2014, 1:09pm »

Below are some excerpts from microbiologist Dr. Tyler Kokjohn's latest piece, Free Market Ufology: Demand a Better Supply. Published at Jeff Ritzmann's Paranormal Waypoint, I highly recommend reading the article in full and digesting it.

Free Market Ufology: Demand a Better Supply

March 10, 2014

By Tyler Kokjohn, Ph.D.

Ufology today is a product of market forces. Denied the governmental and private sector financial support lavished on mainstream science, UFO researchers have been forced to devise alternative ways to finance their work. While efforts to raise money have been rewarded, this success has come at an underappreciated cost.

The alien abduction research subspecialty reveals the consequences of a complex interplay between economic influences and perverse incentives. Now more a collection of balkanized boutiques than scientific exploration, consumers pick their preferred poison from a cornucopia of narratives ranging from alien colonization to Indigo children and everything in between. The bottom line in this business is the bottom line and the market has rewarded those who concocted elaborate tales and created a cottage industry now bearing scant resemblance to anything scientific. Whether intentional or not, this conglomeration of isolated mini-monopolies has suffocated progress by suppressing the essential activities of science – criticism, competition and hypothesis testing through experiment.

For example, the diverse array of competing explanations for the alien abduction phenomenon raises a nagging question – which one is correct? Did Dr. John Mack get it right, or was his body of work supplanted by researchers such as Budd Hopkins and Dr. David Jacobs? Is it conceivable all of them missed the fact that generations of modified children have been emerging on our planet? Then again, maybe hypnosis was not the best tool and the introspection method favored by Dr. Leo Sprinkle provides more reliable insights. Faced with similar confusion, mainstream scientists would probably convene to standardize the diverse methods and conduct direct, objective evaluations to reach consensus on the relative merits and weaknesses of each approach. If a meeting like that ever came about, it might end up being an uncomfortable affair because it is unlikely assertions certain investigators possess special abilities to discern the truth of hypnosis-acquired testimony would carry any weight. Even worse for some investigators would be explaining how they perforate the screen memories installed by aliens and acquire reliable information from hypnotized subjects. Confidence in the recovered testimony vanishes quickly in a trap of infinite logical recursion; the classic ‘they know you know’ argument. How could anyone ever prove these clever aliens did not plan for a breach of the first screen memory by pre-installing the memories you recovered, the ones they wanted you to discover? The best way to handle all these issues is to simply claim you have special abilities, have outsmarted the advanced aliens, move on and hope no one notices the contradictions. Answerable only to your customers and safely isolated from peer criticism, that strategy may succeed economically, but it does not advance knowledge.

[...]

Abduction research has reached a critical stalemate. It is clear that several investigators possess an unencumbered capacity to acquire genetic samples that could yield definitive evidence in support of some long-standing alien abduction hypotheses. Moreover, in some instances these samples could be obtained using non-invasive methods and analyzed rapidly at low cost commercial testing facilities. But an unencumbered capacity to perform tests literally means nothing when investigators do not possess the fundamental will to conduct the tests. To date these investigators appear unmotivated to either have genetic analyses performed or report the results.

Consumers will become steadily more familiar with genetic technologies as they are incorporated into routine medical practice for purposes of improving cancer treatments or aiding in the diagnosis of complex disease conditions. Increasing public sophistication regarding the amazing power of these methods and where and how they may be useful, may force investigators to adopt new tools or risk losing audience share. With such potent tools available and an inevitable consumer mandate to use them, will the end times soon be at hand for the pseudoscientists? Not necessarily. The market is an ever-changing thing and I suggest we may already see the outlines of the future emerging.

One strategy is akin to cutting out the middleman. If the real goal is simply selling products to the general public and not to perform a high quality scientific study able to sustain a bona fide peer review, there is no need for meticulous research. The heavily promoted Paracas Skulls story provides a fine example of DNA evidence stagecraft. Notwithstanding the hoopla, the Paracas Skulls investigation promoters actually revealed no primary data at all, the released information was preliminary and consisted only of vague characterizations and far reaching conclusions from an anonymous geneticist who simultaneously signaled the actual quality of the supporting information is questionable (http://www.disclose.tv/news/Shocking_NEW_DNA_Evidence_Reveals_Nephilim_Existence/99455). In this case data quality is not a primary concern as the ‘evidence’ serves the strictly instrumental purpose of chumming along an audience for an upcoming documentary. An anonymous geneticist touting preliminary and essentially invisible data clearly serves no scientifically significant ends.

Another strategy exploring the limits of nothing is being put forth by Dr. David Jacobs. He posits an evolutionary process for hybrids that yields entities ‘human in every way except for sleep cycle and ability to control others’ (http://ufotrail.blogspot.com/2012/04/bizarre-world-of-doctor-david-jacobs.html). In one sense this ploy seems to neatly avoid some vexing questions by making it appear these entities could not be identified like the alleged earlier stage hybrids. The changes in sleep cycle and ability to control others must have been imparted through some mechanism executed by the aliens. At some level, these changes – genetic, biochemical, ultrastructural, cellular, or anatomic – will leave traces. In addition to powerful genetic analysis tools, scientific competition and market forces have combined to provide researchers with the ability to detect changes in protein profiles, perturbations in gene expression patterns and epigenetic modifications to the genome that alter gene activity without changing the basic DNA sequence. Pick your poison, Doctor. Although not at all hybrid privacy friendly, this free market has produced some amazingly powerful and useful analysis technology.

[...]

Investigators of paranormal phenomena are in the early phases of the genetic technology learning curve. To date, DNA sequencing methods have been employed comprehensively in Bigfoot investigations as well as examinations of unusual skeletal and other remains hypothesized to be alien. Although Bill Chalker blazed a trail many years ago, alien abduction investigators have remained steadfast in their near universal refusal to adopt the new technologies. Inevitably these investigators will come under pressure to test their hypotheses or modify them.

Free markets have advantages, but consumers are best advised to be cautious in their purchases. The use of DNA sequencing and other genetic analysis technology to examine paranormal phenomena is a positive development. However, it is important to recognize there will be situations in which the new methods are simply not useful. Another problem involves the complex issues in interpreting DNA sequence data. In mainstream science, the minimum standard is publication of the data after peer review. Unfortunately, this vital quality assurance step can be effectively faked or avoided outright by paranormal phenomenon investigators. These groups or individuals are under no obligation to function according to the norms and customs of mainstream science. Most simply mimic science.

Full article:

http://www.paranormalwaypoint.com/free-market-ufology-demand-a-better-supply/
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2014, 1:27pm by jjflash » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #170 on: Mar 10th, 2014, 1:39pm »

on Mar 8th, 2014, 8:47pm, Mythos wrote:
One thing I have found in the UFO arena is that pretty much everyone connects their own Dots-of-Logic differently.

Some people may connect their Dots-of-Logic in a manner similar to this:

1. Thousands of UFO reports = Some may be true
2. If true, what do they want?: Take over Earth, Destroy us, Study us, Observe us?
3. Since we have not seen them try to Take over or Destroy us: Reports seem to favor = Study and/or Observe
4. In order to Study or Observe: Which would be more informative: To Observe from afar or to Abduct and study up close?
5. Reports seem to favor both, Observe from afar & Abduct.
6. Are there Reports that would tend to confirm that UFO's may have Observed from afar? = YES, every time someone sees a UFO, they could possibly be Observing us.
7. Are there Reports that would tend to confirm that abductions have taken place? = YES, the Hills, Travis Walton, Charlie Parker, etc.
8. Has Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs EVER spoke with people who claimed to be abducted? = YES
9. Is there evidence proving that ALL of those people are lying?
10. Are Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs Scientists? = No, they are Amateurs or Self-taught.
11. Can Amateurs or people who are Self-taught ever be successful or make some correct Decisions? = Bill Gates & Steve Jobs did!
12. Did Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs make mistakes? = Probably!

13. If a scientist makes some mistakes does it nullify all their findings or make everything they did suspect?
14. Is it possible that some of the information gathered by Budd Hopkins & David Jacobs is correct and viable?




Let's look at those points a little:

1. Many reports indeed and indeed some may be true....but true what?
2. You are assuming they are aliens here
3, 4 , and 5 ..Again more pure speculation based on the belief they are aliens since without that the points are moot
6.Same again
7. Again speculation based on anecdotal material
8.see answer above
9.There isn't evidence one way or the other about whether they are all lying.
10.Agree they are amateurs regarding science.
11. Agree that talented amateurs in a field could arrive at a valid position..no guarantees one way or the other
btw Gates and Jobs were not 'amateurs' being trained in computer technology....Jacobs and Hopkins had no training or experience in anything close to science or investigations.
12. They did make mistakes.
13. No, but once again Jacobs and Hopkins were not scientists
14. It's possible that some of their data is useful...in the right hands.

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #171 on: Mar 10th, 2014, 3:01pm »

DRWU,

I GUESS IT IS PRUDENT TO ADOPT THE PHILOSOPHY THAT EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE...BUT TO TOTALLY DISMISS AND BROAD BRUSH PAINT THIS TOPIC AS FANTASY/IMAGINATION SEEMS TO RESTRICT ONES 360 DEGREE VIEW OF WHAT MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE AND/OR CONTINUES TO OCCUR.

I MENTION THIS DUE TO YOUR POSITION WHEREIN HOPKINS AND JACOBS WERE NOT ACADEMICALLY SKINNED IN THE/THIS ENDEAVOR~WHERE WOULD YOU SUGGEST SUCH INDIVIDUALS COULD HAVE BEEN TRAINED FOR SUCH WORK/PASSION...GRANTED THERE WERE/ARE GREY AREAS IN THEIR RESEARCH (POWER OF SUGGESTION~WHICH I GET) AND WHAT RESEARCH DOESN'T HAVE IT'S ROUGH EDGES {NOTHING PERFECT IN AN IMPERFECT REALITY}...BUT THERE WILL BE THAT PERCENTAGE OF INDIVIDUALS WHEREIN THAT "DOG DON'T HUNT" MUCH LIKE MATHEMATICIANS WHOM OPINED THE "BIG BANG" AND WITH THE LACK OF COMPUTATIONAL POWER TO ASSESS SAME...MANY ASPECTS OF THEIR RESEARCH/OPINION WAS>>>FOR~THE ~MOST<<< ROUNDED OFF TO SUIT THEIR HANDLERS AND COMPUTATIONAL CAPACITY. wink

SO LET'S FOLLOW YOUR LEAD FOR ONE MINUTE~I'M GAME! JACOBS AND HOPKINS~O.K.~LET'S CUT THEM LOOSE...HAVING SAID THAT...AND THEIR AMATEUR STATUS...(I DO THINK IT TO BE PRUDENT AND MUST INTERJECT THE VAST NUMBER OF DISCOVERIES WHICH WERE MADE BY AMATEURS OVER THE DECADES AND CENTURIES IN COUNTLESS FIELDS OF STUDY)
YOU DO KNOW THOMAS JEFFERSON NEVER RECEIVED A DEGREE~THAT IS WHY EVEN TODAY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA THOSE WHOM ATTAIN THEIR PhD~STILL ADDRESS THEIR COLLEAGUES AS MISTER OR MISS/MS.~JEFFERSON ANOTHER AMATEUR I GUESS...OF COURSE I'M BEING AN EXTEREMIST MERELY TO MAKE A POINT!!!

SHALL WE DISMISS J. ALLEN HYNEK~ DR. JOHN MACK~ I GUESS THEY WERE DILUSSIONAL AS WELL...I GUESS THE DILUSSION THE AFOREMENTIONED ACADEMICS ENCOUNTERED WAS THEY FACED THE DECEPTION PERPETUATED BY>>>THE POWERS THAT BE<<< AND THE HOST OF MINIONS USED TO TOUT THEIR POSITION THAT WE NEVER HAVE BEEN VISITED BY EXTRTERRESTRIAL/DIMENSIONALS NOR CONTINUE TO THIS DAY...I'M FURTHER GUESSING THEIR PARCHMENT/EXPERIENCE/RESEARCH/ACTUAL FIELD STUDY GAVE THEM ACADEMIC RIGHTS TO "OPINE" ON THE UFOLOGICAL MYSTERY.

I FURTHER ACCEPT THIS UFOLOGICAL MYSTERY WILL BE DIFFICULT TO WRAP IN A NICE PACKAGE WITH A BOW ATOP...BUT THOSE WHOM REMAIN IN DENIAL...REFUSE TO LISTEN...EXPECT SUCH ENTITIES TO TAP THEM ON THE SHOULDER AND SAY~WE'RE HERE~ARE SIPPING FROM THAT SAME "JUG OF DILUSION"~THAT DOES SOUND LIKE A NIFTY DRINK TO PROPAGATE grin...IT DOES SOUND LIKE A SNAKE OIL SALESMAN...GET YOUR "JUG OF DILUSION"...YOU WILL FEEL BETTER FOR IT...A LA {EDDIE BERNAYS}

IN LIEU OF THE AFOREMENTIONED~WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOU (SECOND PERSON PLURAL) TO GRASP SUCH VISITORS HAVE COME AND CONTINUE TO ENTER OUR AIRSPACE WITH IMPUNITY...WHAT WOULD BE THE NECESSARY EVIDENCE AND WHOM WOULD YOU SUGGEST BE THE GATEKEEPER OF SAME~THOSE WHOM WE KNOW HAVE INVESTED VAST AMOUNTS OF $$$ TO DISUADE/CONTAIN/RIDICULE~ OR A COLLECTION OF ACADEMICS PAID BY THE SAME GROUP (WE'VE BEEN THERE...DONE THAT...AND GOT THE CONDON T~SHIRT FOR IT)NEVERTHELESS~WHO~WHOM I ASK~AND I DO SO ASK WITH SINCERE INTENT TO GRASP WHAT WOULD BE THE ITEM OF EVIDENCE TO CLENCH IT FOR YOU(SECOND PERSON PLURALwink )...

SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #172 on: Mar 10th, 2014, 4:07pm »

on Mar 10th, 2014, 3:01pm, ZETAR wrote:
DRWU,

I GUESS IT IS PRUDENT TO ADOPT THE PHILOSOPHY THAT EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE...BUT TO TOTALLY DISMISS AND BROAD BRUSH PAINT THIS TOPIC AS FANTASY/IMAGINATION SEEMS TO RESTRICT ONES 360 DEGREE VIEW OF WHAT MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE AND/OR CONTINUES TO OCCUR.

I MENTION THIS DUE TO YOUR POSITION WHEREIN HOPKINS AND JACOBS WERE NOT ACADEMICALLY SKINNED IN THE/THIS ENDEAVOR~WHERE WOULD YOU SUGGEST SUCH INDIVIDUALS COULD HAVE BEEN TRAINED FOR SUCH WORK/PASSION...GRANTED THERE WERE/ARE GREY AREAS IN THEIR RESEARCH (POWER OF SUGGESTION~WHICH I GET) AND WHAT RESEARCH DOESN'T HAVE IT'S ROUGH EDGES {NOTHING PERFECT IN AN IMPERFECT REALITY}...BUT THERE WILL BE THAT PERCENTAGE OF INDIVIDUALS WHEREIN THAT "DOG DON'T HUNT" MUCH LIKE MATHEMATICIANS WHOM OPINED THE "BIG BANG" AND WITH THE LACK OF COMPUTATIONAL POWER TO ASSESS SAME...MANY ASPECTS OF THEIR RESEARCH/OPINION WAS>>>FOR~THE ~MOST<<< ROUNDED OFF TO SUIT THEIR HANDLERS AND COMPUTATIONAL CAPACITY. wink

SO LET'S FOLLOW YOUR LEAD FOR ONE MINUTE~I'M GAME! JACOBS AND HOPKINS~O.K.~LET'S CUT THEM LOOSE...HAVING SAID THAT...AND THEIR AMATEUR STATUS...(I DO THINK IT TO BE PRUDENT AND MUST INTERJECT THE VAST NUMBER OF DISCOVERIES WHICH WERE MADE BY AMATEURS OVER THE DECADES AND CENTURIES IN COUNTLESS FIELDS OF STUDY)
YOU DO KNOW THOMAS JEFFERSON NEVER RECEIVED A DEGREE~THAT IS WHY EVEN TODAY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA THOSE WHOM ATTAIN THEIR PhD~STILL ADDRESS THEIR COLLEAGUES AS MISTER OR MISS/MS.~JEFFERSON ANOTHER AMATEUR I GUESS...OF COURSE I'M BEING AN EXTEREMIST MERELY TO MAKE A POINT!!!

SHALL WE DISMISS J. ALLEN HYNEK~ DR. JOHN MACK~ I GUESS THEY WERE DILUSSIONAL AS WELL...I GUESS THE DILUSSION THE AFOREMENTIONED ACADEMICS ENCOUNTERED WAS THEY FACED THE DECEPTION PERPETUATED BY>>>THE POWERS THAT BE<<< AND THE HOST OF MINIONS USED TO TOUT THEIR POSITION THAT WE NEVER HAVE BEEN VISITED BY EXTRTERRESTRIAL/DIMENSIONALS NOR CONTINUE TO THIS DAY...I'M FURTHER GUESSING THEIR PARCHMENT/EXPERIENCE/RESEARCH/ACTUAL FIELD STUDY GAVE THEM ACADEMIC RIGHTS TO "OPINE" ON THE UFOLOGICAL MYSTERY.

I FURTHER ACCEPT THIS UFOLOGICAL MYSTERY WILL BE DIFFICULT TO WRAP IN A NICE PACKAGE WITH A BOW ATOP...BUT THOSE WHOM REMAIN IN DENIAL...REFUSE TO LISTEN...EXPECT SUCH ENTITIES TO TAP THEM ON THE SHOULDER AND SAY~WE'RE HERE~ARE SIPPING FROM THAT SAME "JUG OF DILUSION"~THAT DOES SOUND LIKE A NIFTY DRINK TO PROPAGATE grin...IT DOES SOUND LIKE A SNAKE OIL SALESMAN...GET YOUR "JUG OF DILUSION"...YOU WILL FEEL BETTER FOR IT...A LA {EDDIE BERNAYS}

IN LIEU OF THE AFOREMENTIONED~WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOU (SECOND PERSON PLURAL) TO GRASP SUCH VISITORS HAVE COME AND CONTINUE TO ENTER OUR AIRSPACE WITH IMPUNITY...WHAT WOULD BE THE NECESSARY EVIDENCE AND WHOM WOULD YOU SUGGEST BE THE GATEKEEPER OF SAME~THOSE WHOM WE KNOW HAVE INVESTED VAST AMOUNTS OF $$$ TO DISUADE/CONTAIN/RIDICULE~ OR A COLLECTION OF ACADEMICS PAID BY THE SAME GROUP (WE'VE BEEN THERE...DONE THAT...AND GOT THE CONDON T~SHIRT FOR IT)NEVERTHELESS~WHO~WHOM I ASK~AND I DO SO ASK WITH SINCERE INTENT TO GRASP WHAT WOULD BE THE ITEM OF EVIDENCE TO CLENCH IT FOR YOU(SECOND PERSON PLURALwink )...

SHALOM...Z


Extraordinary claims do require extraordinary evidence and one would think that both ET proponents and skeptics would understand that.
I don't dismiss it all as fantasy and believe that there is a signal in all the noise. My problem is that too many have already decided it's 'space aliens' even when the jury is still out , too many have looked at various cases and not been discriminating enough, and too many are willing to accept just about anything as proof it's space aliens and are simply embarrasing themselves.

Not sure what comparing Hopkins and Jacobs to Big Bang astrophysicists has to do with anything, but imho neither man was qualified to do an investigation into a potential scientifc phenomenon of ET on earth.
At the very least they should have had real qualified hypnotherapists working and actually doing the regressions and real scientists collecting the data for analysis by them and also forensic analysts. They did not as far as I undersand it. This is why their work has been under suspicion for a very long time.
(not sure what Jefferson has to do with anything either..)

I do think Dr Hynek and Dr Mack are legitimate individuals though trained in 2 distinct science disciplines. Hynek came to believe that there was more to the ufo enigma than simple space aliens but did believe it was a legitmate phenom. The same applied to Mack in a different manner. He felt that the experiences of the people he worked with were real to them but was also not certain if this was an objective physical experience with aliens abducting people or some other form of experience though again he believed it was a legitimate phenom.
We need to listen to what experiencers have to say and think about it in a cautious and thoughtful manner. Sadly that's not the way that many approach this and they tend to 'believe' all too readily. Just as easily many tend to dismiss all too readily.

Your last paragraph is a bit jumbled and your style of writing and grammar a bit unusual so I'm not sure exactly what you are asking.
I get the impression you are asking what specific evidence would it take for a true skeptic to cross the line into believing space aliens are here and flying around and abducting people . I would think that nothing less than clear indisputable hard evidence would satisfy them; eg, confirmed alien dna,
part of a spaceship, dead body on public display, a major landing in Central Park, etc...and of course all or any of these confirmed by a panel of reputable scientists.
I already think that the ufo phenom is 'real'...my point has always been what does it really represent?

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #173 on: Mar 10th, 2014, 4:51pm »

DRWU,

AN ADMIRABLE ANSWER TO A VERY DECEPTIVE/COMPLICATED PHENOMENA...I WAS TRYING TO NUDGE AND PUSH BUT THE WISDOM OF UNEMTIONAL/LOGICAL RESPONSES ROSE TO MY EXPECTATIONS...NICELY DONE...I BET YOU PLAY CHESS QUITE WELL!!!

I ACCEPT YOUR CONTENTIONS OF PROTOCOL...BUT I MUST FURTHER RESPECT THOSE SIGNALS FROM EXPERIENCERS~WHICH OF COURSE SHOULD BE VETTED ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS...

THOSE WHOM HAVE VESTED INTEREST IN THIS MATTER REMAINING SEQUESTERED WILL DO ALL THEY CAN TO PREVENT ANY TRULY OPEN REVELATION OF SUCH. WHY? I HAVE MY OPINION AND SAME WILL BE FOR ANOTHER EXCHANGE.

THOSE WHOM HAVE RESEARCHED THE FLAP OVER D.C. IN 1952...SUCH SHOULD BE EYE OPENING AND HAVE BEEN RUDIMENTARY JUSTIFICATION FOR CONFIRMATION OF SOMETHING BEYOND OUR MAXIMUM TECHNOLOGY/TECHNICAL UNDERSTANDING/GRASP OF PHYSICS~ THE BATTLE OF LOS ANGELES AND THE COUNTLESS MUNITIONS THAT POUNDED THIS HOVERING OBJECT WITH NO EFFECT/AFFECT...ANOTHER EXAMPLE...IMHO...AND THAT LIST GOES ON....

E.T FROM DISTANT GALAXIES~DIMENSIONAL SURFERS...I'M SURE THERE ARE THOSE WITHIN THAT COMPARTMENTALIZED INNER LAYER OF THAT MAJESTIC ONION WHO/WHOM DO KNOW...AND DO WHAT THEY CAN WHEN ONE GETS TO CLOSE TO THAT ELUSIVE TRUTH...BUT THE WISDOM OF SCRUTINY...TO FERRET OUT THE HOAX~BLACK PROGRAMS~CONSCIOUS MANIPULATION OF THE MASSES~TERRESTRIAL EXPLANATIONS~SUCH IS S.O.P. FOR ME AND MUCH LIKE YOU...I BELIEVE/UNDERSTAND...THERE IS THAT SIGNAL VIBRATING FOR ONE TO ATTUNE TO...SOME TAKE THE HIGH ROAD AND SOME TAKE THE LOW ROAD...HERE'S WISHING WE ALL GET TO SCOTLAND...SOME MORNING wink

I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE YOUR RESPONE!!!wink

SHALOM...Z

EDIT TO ADD:

A PLANET AS BEAUTIFUL AS THIS~WHY WOULDN'T THOSE WANT TO VISIT grin grin grin
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #174 on: Mar 12th, 2014, 7:12pm »

The following blog post was made by Andy Russell, a young man who writes about crop circles, gov docs on UFOs and similar subject matter at his blog, The Truth Hides. I felt it a relevant post deserving of consideration.


Carol Rainey: Open Letter to the UFO Community

March 9, 2014

The Truth Hides

Carol Rainey is the former wife of Budd Hopkins. Just before his death, Carol made public the concerns she had regarding, as she saw it, the cult of alien abduction. It also brought sharply into focus the use of hypnosis and its practitioners. I believe she has some very valid concerns. The whole debate has been reignited by her open letter to the UFO community, which can be viewed here:

http://ufotrail.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/carol-rainey-open-letter-to-ufo.html

There are large sections of the UFO community who have sat back in the belief that abductions were a done deal. They believed that people were abducted, hypnosis was the key to their repressed memories and what Messrs. Mack, Hopkins and Jacobs told them was pretty much the whole story. Too few continued to challenge, to investigate and to question.

When people dare to question, then things gets ugly. Carol has come under some increasingly personal attacks for daring to ask the questions she wanted answers too. In fact, Carol is raising some serious issues that evidently many in the UFO community do not want to deal with. Some information on the attacks can be found here:

http://redstarfilms.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/carol-rainey-alien-abduction-cult.html

There are some serious cracks appearing in much of the abduction story that need to be answered. In fact, are overdue to be answered as they have been papered over for too long. This doesn’t mean that this could invalidate what has been reported before, but truth should always be at the heart of these subjects. So why go attacking those who are trying to get to the truth?
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #175 on: Mar 12th, 2014, 7:13pm »

I would also like to share some comments contained in an email chain at UFO Collective. Peter B wrote in part in a March 5 email:

One notices over the years (and there have been many) that there
is a tendency, among those who want to believe that ET is visiting
us, to be unable to tell the difference between a skeptic and what is,
with questionable accuracy, called a debunker. Essentially what
this means is that if you ask too many questions, or (in some cases)
state the obvious, bells and books and candles are produced and
a lot of silly sarcasm is chanted, and no one takes any notice of
what the anathematized has to say after that. What there is not is any
display of interest, by the ululating ones, in discovering what might
be the truth. The prize current example of this lack of interest is, of
course, the failure of the allegedly good and great among US ufolo-
gists to consider that Mesdames Rainey and Woods might just have
the teeniest weeniest smidgeon of a point, and hear them out. So
much easier to cry "scorned woman" at Ms Rainey, & distort her
statements by fully 180 degrees, and consider it evidence of her
foolishness that she was de-subscribed from another list (by some-
one who by so doing showed he had no interest in disinterested
discussion): then no one has to think about anything too taxing.
Likewise, pronounce Ms Woods as suffering from MPD, when
that is exactly what Jacobs was trying to twist her into believing,
and evidence of which she had never demonstrated. But to those
who can't bear to have their fixed beliefs, or wishes, challenged,
the psychiatric opinion of an assistant professor of history must
not be gainsaid. The episode has been a disgrace to those concerned,
and to witter that it's "time to move on" is both shameful (or shame-
less) only confirms the diagnosis.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #176 on: Mar 12th, 2014, 7:28pm »

Lastly, this one is for you ZETAR smiley

I am sure you have read it before, but, as was the case with me, it had been a while, as it is from Dr. Mack's work. A Brief Review of Issues Relating to the Reality of the Abduction Phenomenon is the added appendix of Mack's book, Abduction.

The "brief review" is rather lengthy, but makes some relevant points, in my opinion. For example, those choosing to read it might please note the number of times - several - the psychiatrist noted that more research was required, as nothing was firmly established, given the nature and challenges related to lack of physical evidence combined with memory distortion and so on.

Dr. Mack wrote, "The interpretations and conclusions in this book are hypotheses, designed to invite others to join me in the exploration of this important mystery. The alien abduction field is a new one, and it deserves a broad and systematic multi-disciplinary inquiry."

Would he approve of the activities of such individuals as David Jacobs and as explored in this thread? The lack of peer review and the suppression of potential evidence? I'll leave the reader to contemplate the answers to such questions for themselves.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #177 on: Mar 12th, 2014, 10:08pm »

JJ,

I'LL PLAY grin...I WAS QUITE LUCKY TO HAVE A WELL PLACED SOURCE IN NASA...THE REAL DEAL...STELLAR CLEARANCE...I WAS QUASI~BRIEFED...SO FOR ME THE ILLUSION DOESN'T APPLY...MOREOVER...I'VE HAD A LIFETIME OF SIGHTINGS...FROM EARLY CHILDHOOD ONWARD...COINCIDENCE...YOU KNOW MY THOUGHTS ON SUCH...

NOW TO THE MIRAGE...YA EVER CONSIDER THAT THERE MAY BE MULTIPLE LAYERS OF THE MIRAGE...IN THAT THE SUGGESTION OR PSUEDO~IMPLICATION IS TO RETAIN THE SKEPTICISM AND CONFIDENTIALITY OF THE GOLDEN EGG(S) WHICH HAVE BEEN FOUND/BACK ENGINEERED/MILITARIZED...A LOT OF EFFORT AND $$$ HAS BEEN SPENT ON RELIGATING THE UFO MYSTERY TO A NON~PHENOMENA.

MOREOVER, IF YOU HAVE EVER READ ON EDDIE BERNAY AND THE PSYCHOLOGICAL APPROACH TO SALES/MARKETING/MASS MANIPULATION...WELL...ANY PSY~OP...SUCH ENTAILS THE FINALE'...WHICH WITH ANY PRODUCT...YOU ARE BETTER OFF WITH THIS OR BELIEVING THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER...REACHING THE INNER BELIEFS OF MAN.

FURTHERMORE...I AM WELL VERSED IN THE INS AND OUTS OF PROPAGANDA AS I HAD/HAVE A PASSION FOR POLITICAL SCIENCE AND PSYCHOLOGY...THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT MAKE ME TICK AND TOCK... THE AFOREMENTIONED JUST HAPPENS TO BE PART OF MY JOURNEY.

HAVING SAID THAT...WE ALL ARE A CULMINATION OF OUR EXPERIENCES AND EDUCATION AND COMMON SENSE...AND FOR ME...SAME IS TEMPERED WITH THE RECOGNITION OF COSMIC FORCES...IS IT MY RESPONSIBILTY TO CONVINCE ANOTHER OF SUCH...I'VE LERANED OVER THE YEARS THAT IS INAPPROPRIATE AS SOME ARE NOT READY TO REACH BEYOND THEIR COMFORT ZONE...VERY SIMILAR TO TRIBAL REGIONS WHOM WESTERN COUNTRIES TRY TO DEMOCRATIZE (MARKET REALLY~YA KNOW THE CAPITLAISM THINGY)...AND WHEN DOING SO ABRUPTLY RATIONALIZE THAT SAID COUNTRY/PEOPLE WERE NOT READY FOR SAME...MOREOVER, WHEN OPENING CERTAIN DOORS LACKING THE MATURITY...REASON...COSMIC UNDERSTANDING...SOME MERELY POP THEIR FUSE PANEL AS THERE'S NO GOING BACK...UNLESS ONE CHOOSES TO REMAIN IN COMPLETE DENIAL THROUGHOUT THIS SHORT LIFETIME.

THEN ONE SHOULD ASK...FROM ANCIENT HISTORICAL RECORDS OF EVENT AFTER EVENT...SOMETIMES...OH SO CRUDELY RECORDED/ACCOUNTED/DRAWN/CONSTRUCTED FROM OUR 21ST CENTURY PERSPECTIVE...THAT THERE WERE THOSE WHOM HAD EXPERIENCES BEYOND THEIR UNDERSTANDING AND SOUGHT TO SHOW RESPECT...MANY INSTANCES IT WAS WHOLE TRIBES WHOM GRASPED THE EXPOSURE AND FURTHER...COLLECTIVELY RECORDED AND SHARED FOR FOLLOWING GENERATIONS...COUNTLESS FRAGMENTED EVIDENCE WHICH FOR THE MOST PRECEDED THE MIRAGE...MATRIX...CONTAINMENT EDICT...

HAVING SAID THE ABOVE...MY PERSONAL PROTOCOL IS TO WEIGH EVERYTHING AGAINST A SKEPTICAL FOUNDATION...READ AND PARSE BETWEEN THE LINES UNTIL AND IF...CONSERVATISM AND SKEPTICISM DOES NOT APPLY...AND...I TRY TO CONSIDER MY SELF...AN EDUCATED~RATIONAL~PRAGMATIST cool...AM I RIGHT ALL THE TIME...ABSOLUTELY NOT...BUT I STRIVE QUITE HARD TO REMAIN IN THE TOP PERCENTILE...

SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #178 on: Mar 17th, 2014, 12:00pm »

on Mar 4th, 2014, 11:37am, jjflash wrote:
Right.

Purr, I appreciate your inquisitiveness. I also appreciate your willingness to try to pose the difficult questions. Both are qualities I admire.

That stated, if you sincerely do not understand the problems in logic with suggesting/implying we not test self-proclaimed hybrids, etc., because we may not be able to accurately read the test results, I do not have any further ways of trying to explain it at this particular point in time. It is the responsibility of the researcher making the claim to test and validate the hypothesis.


Thanks for calling me inquisitive, Jjflash, although in truth I tried to be specifically skeptical towards Professor Tyler Kokjohn's hypothesis it may be possible to test for alien DNA trace (fetal cell material) left in so called hybrid mothers' reproductive systems.

Uh, I'm not sure the problem is I do not understand/see any logic of dna-testing such female abductees, rather that I am asking pesky/critical/SKEPTICAL questions regarding Kokjohn's theoretical test which you haven't answered. (Reason given: you are not responsible to do so.)

So, I am fine in principle with any line of investigation of Abduction, as long as it is voluntary, respectfully and (...sharing your preference here...) done by accredited professionals.

I am more than fine with applying scrutiny to extraordinary claims by UFOlogists, and have agreed on your historical point of David Jacobs behaving unethically in the Woods case.

A bit strange, as well as disappointing rolleyes that my repeated critical questions (see: topic header Critical Analysis etc.!) remain unanswered. There are currently no other scientific sources reviewing the viability of Tyler Kokjohn's claims, you have been presenting them in forum, so I do not know who else to ask really.

Gist of my skepticism/critique is that (as evident from the professor's linked articles) we have no alien DNA or alien 'markers' to compare Absence or Presence of ET tampering with abductees' or human fetuses genetic material. His line of research imo must be considered original, pure theory for now. And since your lack of an answer has left this DNA test theory undefended, I maintain it is as yet premature to offer it as a reliable test for alien trace in abductee cell matter.

Tyler Kokjohn's proposed test would amount to testing in the blind, a genetic fishing expedition imho!


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #179 on: Mar 17th, 2014, 12:08pm »

PURR,

NOTHING LIKE THOSE PESKY UNANSWERED QUESTION... grin

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SHALOM...Z
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