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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abduction  (Read 51025 times)
ZETAR
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #390 on: May 31st, 2015, 7:22pm »

PURR,

TO WIT:

"abductees on the whole are not crazy, nor does abduction memory in itself indicates some psychiatric disorder."

OR MIGHT IT BE ALONG THE LINES OF...PTA/ED...POST TRAUMATIC ABDUCTION/EXPERIENCE DISORDER...THINKING OUT OF THE CASEBOOK ZONE...

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #391 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 08:20am »

on May 31st, 2015, 11:44am, purr wrote:
Establishing alien reality is outside Psychiatry's purview. (It is virtually impossible to prove aliens are/aren't visiting, so complete certainty either way seems not entirely rational for anybody.) laugh


purr


But establishing psychological problems is in it's purview which js exactly what needs to be done in the beginning imho. Anyone who has one of these 'paranormal' experiences should imho rule out mundane causes first before they start attributing it to space aliens....or demons or whatever.
I do agree that an unbiased doctor would be helpful but we all have biases so that's going to be next to impossible to achieve. I think it's a poor idea for a person to run into the arms of a ufo group for hypnosis or support because it will usually merely reinforce the viewpoint of the group and not look at the situation evenly.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #392 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 09:35am »

DRWU,

TO WIT:

"it will usually merely reinforce the viewpoint of the group and not look at the situation evenly."

INSIGHTFUL ~ I QUITE AGREE ~ ONE CAVEAT...

"it will usually merely reinforce the viewpoint of the group"

THIS CUTS BOTH WAYS/TWO WAY STREET ~ TO THE SKEPTICS/GNOSTICS...IMHO!

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NEVERTHELESS ~ YOU MAKE AN EXCELLENT POINT!

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #393 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 11:00am »

on May 31st, 2015, 11:58am, ZETAR wrote:
PURR,

TO WIT:

"Establishing alien reality is outside Psychiatry's purview. (It is virtually impossible to prove aliens are/aren't visiting, so complete certainty either way seems not entirely rational for anybody.)"

THE DIFFICULTY WITH ABOVE OVERLAPS WITH MOST...IF NOT ALL (MYSELF INCLUDED) WHEN WE PONDER/SPECULATE THE COMPEXITY OF THE UNKNOWN ~ OR AS HAL PUTS IT ~ THAT WHICH WE HAVE NOT EXPERIMENTED ENOUGH ON TO BREED NEW IDEAS/THEORIES...

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"My idea of a good psychiatrist would be: someone fascinated by minds."

INDEED!

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Hi ZETAR, just the other day I remarked to my fam that cats (and by extension dogs, any socially intelligent housepets) make for excellent therapists! Better yet, they work for food cheesy, mehbi shelter and a lilbit kindness thrown in!

My serious point of psychiatric limitations (namely to diagnose and treat mental disorders) I meant to make in the same vein as topic host Jjflash, who defensibly argued that therapists (of various accreditation) are (mis)using it as vehicle to prove that aliens/ET are real. Works both ways imo. The field of psychology indeed is unfit to establish aliens are real... ...as similarly they are unable to show aliens do not exist. Good ones (like the late Mack) figure out what is on their patients' minds, and leave the rest to Physicists, people named Stanton Friedman and the overall membership of UFO Casebook naturally.


smiley


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #394 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 11:09am »

What doesn't cut both ways though, gentlemen, and as Wu suggests, is that it is not open-minded to approach fantastic claims, regardless of specific content, as if it is 50/50 likelihood of accuracy. That begins to approach advocating for the cause, rather than providing therapeutic treatment.

Also, an argument could be well made that self-described abductees would benefit from professional treatment for trauma regardless of the specific causes of the trauma. I am of that opinion because the experiences are virtually always described as traumatic. Given the symptoms of trauma, it only makes sense to encourage treatment. I'd say that's the case if we prioritize quality of life for the individual, as well as if we value accuracy of reports and quality of resulting information.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #395 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 11:17am »

purr, while we have some differences in opinions on some specifics, I generally agree with you that it is not the responsibility of the therapist to discern reality for the client - either way. Yes, ma'am, I agree with that. A professional therapist assists the client in coming to their own terms with various circumstances. That is different, for instance, than independently conducted evaluation, as I understand the circumstances.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #396 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 11:44am »

PURR,

TO WIT:

"My serious point of psychiatric limitations (namely to diagnose and treat mental disorders) I meant to make in the same vein as topic host Jjflash, who defensibly argued that therapists (of various accreditation) are (mis)using it as vehicle to prove that aliens/ET are real. Works both ways imo. The field of psychology indeed is unfit to establish aliens are real... ...as similarly they are unable to show aliens do not exist. Good ones (like the late Mack) figure out what is on their patients' minds, and leave the rest to Physicists, people named Stanton Friedman and the overall membership of UFO Casebook naturally."

I LIKE IT WHEN YOU >>> SHOW OUT <<< grin

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #397 on: Jun 1st, 2015, 11:44am »

JJflash,

..I'd say that's the case if we prioritize quality of life for the individual, as well as if we value accuracy of reports and quality of resulting information...

I would tend to disagree.

While not suggesting that the individual be mistreated, I think that the priority is to find out whether the individual is delusional or not.

The problem is that there is an outside chance that he/she is telling the truth. And if that can be proven then the whole thing takes on very serious meaning.

There is no 'nice' answer to this one.

HAL
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #398 on: Jun 2nd, 2015, 04:43am »

on Jun 1st, 2015, 08:20am, drwu23 wrote:
But establishing psychological problems is in it's purview which js exactly what needs to be done in the beginning imho. Anyone who has one of these 'paranormal' experiences should imho rule out mundane causes first before they start attributing it to space aliens....or demons or whatever.
I do agree that an unbiased doctor would be helpful but we all have biases so that's going to be next to impossible to achieve. I think it's a poor idea for a person to run into the arms of a ufo group for hypnosis or support because it will usually merely reinforce the viewpoint of the group and not look at the situation evenly.


"Needs"..."should"... sure, dr Wu but much depends on how much pressure is put on those reporting abduction experiences to get themselves psychologically evaluated.

This is logical followthrough from Jj's passionate critique on Jacobs (and any similar abductionists smiley): once we frown on the therapist's instruments being (improperly) used to establish the reality of alien abduction/aliens, we cannot then turn round and start flirting with imposing psychiatric evaluation/treatment on all experiencers/abductees, INCLUDING THOSE WHO DON'T ASK FOR IT!

Simply, once we limit Psychology to its proper, legal practice, it ideally should be offered to anyone who feels they needs help, or to disturbed folks constituting a danger to society. Abduction (-memory) isn't a known disorder (although earlier posters correctly stated that resulting traumas may qualify as treatmentworthy PTSD). Abductees are not especially likely to be disordered. They pose no threat. Therefore once some abductees (perhaps scared, shocked yet holding up!) choose not to take the couch route I propose everybody ought to respect this.

Imo it's OK if abductees tell their story, it gets recorded and people decide for themselves whether they believe it or not.


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #399 on: Jun 2nd, 2015, 09:21am »

on Jun 2nd, 2015, 04:43am, purr wrote:
"Needs"..."should"... sure, dr Wu but much depends on how much pressure is put on those reporting abduction experiences to get themselves psychologically evaluated.

This is logical followthrough from Jj's passionate critique on Jacobs (and any similar abductionists smiley): once we frown on the therapist's instruments being (improperly) used to establish the reality of alien abduction/aliens, we cannot then turn round and start flirting with imposing psychiatric evaluation/treatment on all experiencers/abductees, INCLUDING THOSE WHO DON'T ASK FOR IT!

Simply, once we limit Psychology to its proper, legal practice, it ideally should be offered to anyone who feels they needs help, or to disturbed folks constituting a danger to society. Abduction (-memory) isn't a known disorder (although earlier posters correctly stated that resulting traumas may qualify as treatmentworthy PTSD). Abductees are not especially likely to be disordered. They pose no threat. Therefore once some abductees (perhaps scared, shocked yet holding up!) choose not to take the couch route I propose everybody ought to respect this.

Imo it's OK if abductees tell their story, it gets recorded and people decide for themselves whether they believe it or not.


purr


You have a tendency to change the parameters when discussing things and bring in side issues not originally mentioned.
No one is saying that 'abductees' should be forced to have psychiatric analysis nor that they should be treated against their will.
That has to be up to the experiencer and any family involved especially if they are in crisis and might pose a danger to themselves or others as you mentioned.
Personally I think it's an excellent idea for all so-called abductees and experiencers of these high strangeness cases to have psychological testing and analysis done simply to rule out any mundane causes and or medical issues before proceeding onto more esoteric explanations.
It's irresponsible and selfish not to, imho.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #400 on: Jun 3rd, 2015, 01:39am »

Thanks for mentioning that book, Dr. Wu. I took a look at it and it looks interesting.

You had written...

on May 29th, 2015, 09:12am, drwu23 wrote:
It's obvious from reading the Friedman /Marsden book that Betty became obsessed with the ufo phenom and related paranormal events up until her death.
Some other additional facts:
Dr Simon did not see and hypnotize the Hill's until 2 years after the event.
He remains certain that the event is part of their reality but does not say he believes they were literally abducted.
Dr Vallee says he thinks something odd did happen to them but is not convinced it was a space ship with aliens.


Which got me to thinking...

on May 29th, 2015, 12:03pm, jjflash wrote:
Thanks, drwu23. I agree that the points you bring up are potentially important.

I particularly think the lapse between the date of the alleged event and the point the Hills sought treatment for trauma with Dr. Simon is relevant for a lot of reasons. Just one of those reasons is that people in the 'community' tend to discuss details of the alleged encounter as if those details are a base point and we should begin investigating from there. The fact of the matter, though, is that many of those supposed details were not even put forth until years after the date in question.

In other words, we don't actually know what took place, we only know what the Hills said during trauma-treatment long after the fact. Nonetheless, the story is often recounted by writers and 'investigators' in a supposedly chronological order that does not reflect the time line of many of those details actually begins with statements in Simon's office, not events on a New England highway. I agree with you that is relevant.


Over at Robert Sheaffer's 'Bad UFOs', writer/researcher Peter Brookesmith has offered some helpful comments to the post Robert did on the private conference involving Betty. Brookesmith was in attendance and co-authored 'Encounters at Indian Head', which was on the Hill case.

Addressing the issue of the time frame of Betty's emerging story, Brookesmith recently explained:

"Betty's abduction story emerged not under hypnosis but in a series of dreams (not in chronological order, she said) that occurred after she had read a number of UFO-related books. The only one she recalled reading was Keyhoe's "Flying Saucer Conspiracy", from which, I maintain (see the book), she could well have developed the story she did. Her original notes on the dreams were lost (she said), and the account of them we have is one reorganized into chronological order... how much might she have elaborated in the process is anyone's guess.

"Despite Betty's protestations to the contrary, Barney knew about these dreams well before he started hypnosis with Dr Simon. At least once she recounted them in public in his presence (a recording exists). I think it's fair to say that when, under hypnosis, he departs from Betty's dream material, he tells Simon, and us, more about himself than about aliens, &c.

"It's also worth bearing in mind that Simon wasn't trying to get to 'the truth' about what happened, but to purge the Hills of their anxieties about their experience. In this he seems to have succeeded, if not wholly in Barney's case."

That doesn't necessarily rule anything out, but it is potentially relevant, in my opinion, particularly as compared to the more popular and overly simplistic accounts of the chain of events.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #401 on: Jun 7th, 2015, 1:36pm »

on Jun 2nd, 2015, 09:21am, drwu23 wrote:
You have a tendency to change the parameters when discussing things and bring in side issues not originally mentioned.
No one is saying that 'abductees' should be forced to have psychiatric analysis nor that they should be treated against their will.
That has to be up to the experiencer and any family involved especially if they are in crisis and might pose a danger to themselves or others as you mentioned.
Personally I think it's an excellent idea for all so-called abductees and experiencers of these high strangeness cases to have psychological testing and analysis done simply to rule out any mundane causes and or medical issues before proceeding onto more esoteric explanations.
It's irresponsible and selfish not to, imho.


Dr Wu, any critical analysis of Abduction may benefit from establishing (better) parameters for dealing with its reports and reporters. Jj has been challenging us to do just that, and several posters (you and me included) added their 2cts worth. If it's a "side issue", we all own it here.

on Jun 1st, 2015, 08:20am, drwu23 wrote:
establishing psychological problems is in it's purview which js exactly what needs to be done in the beginning imho. Anyone who has one of these 'paranormal' experiences should imho rule out mundane causes first before they start attributing it to space aliens....or demons or whatever.


"It" in your post is psychology/psychiatry, establishing disorder well within it's purview, and you state it should be applied to alleged abductees "in the beginning", and "first", that is: before they tell their story from their personal perspective. And those not submitting themselves to evaluation you consider "irresponsible and selfish"!

Wu, you are correct in saying no one, least of all yourself, is proposing force, throwing a net over abductees. cheesy But your repeated insistence on immediate psych evaluation imho FLIRTS with the idea. Calling people irresponsible, selfish, basically negligent for not consulting a psychiatrist does put potential pressure on experiencers on the whole. (Obviously some did seek qualified counselling, the Hills, John Mack's patient group etc.)

Problems. Problems. If we accept as a parameter for ALL serious, responsible abduction experiencers that they first talk to a psychiatrist, the result will be that ALL abduction reports will be made by psychiatric patients. I can see debunkers dancing in the streets! For the many abductees who don't feel the need to go the mental health route, does belief in their own sanity somehow disqualifies them from being believable?

To end, there's no basis for kinda 'shrinking' abduction to size. Professor Mack's ten years of research into abduction reporters found a slightly lower incidence of mental disorder in abductees than in the general population. It would (almost) seem that NOT having been abducted makes one more likely to be in need of a Psychiatrist! laugh

(I agree with Jjflash that if experiencers decide to seek help, it should be provided by trained mental health professionals.)


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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #402 on: Jun 7th, 2015, 2:24pm »

PURR,

TO WIT:

"It would (almost) seem that NOT having been abducted makes one more likely to be in need of a Psychiatrist!"

THAT OUGHT TO KEEP EM PEEKIN...

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #403 on: Jun 7th, 2015, 6:13pm »

on Jun 7th, 2015, 1:36pm, purr wrote:
Dr Wu, .......
(I agree with Jjflash that if experiencers decide to seek help, it should be provided by trained mental health professionals.)


purr


The most relevant comment in your post.
They should indeed do this rather than run into the arms of so-called ufo abduction experts.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #404 on: Jun 9th, 2015, 05:39am »

on Jun 7th, 2015, 6:13pm, drwu23 wrote:
The most relevant comment in your post.
They should indeed do this rather than run into the arms of so-called ufo abduction experts.


Perhaps I should count myself lucky you selected a snippet of relevance in my post, dr Wu!

grin

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