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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abduction  (Read 44704 times)
ZETAR
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #420 on: Jun 15th, 2015, 09:46am »

HAL,

TO WIT:

"And how do your demons fit" ~ "in the mind" ~ PARDON MY FOCUSED APPROACH grin

THAT IS INDEED THE QUESTION ~ AND TEMPERED WITH SECONDARY CONSIDERATIONS ~ WHEN AND IF THOSE/THAT MENTAL STIMULI MAY HAVE MANIFISTED ITSELF IN PHYSICAL REALITY ~ cool

The Catholic Church revised the Rite of Exorcism in January 1999, though the traditional Rite of Exorcism in Latin is allowed as an option. The ritual assumes that possessed persons retain their free will, though the demon may hold control over their physical body, and involves prayers, blessings, and invocations with the use of the document Of Exorcisms and Certain Supplications.

According to the Vatican guidelines issued in 1999, “the person who claims to be possessed must be evaluated by doctors to rule out a mental or physical illness.”[7] Most reported cases do not require an exorcism because twentieth-century Catholic officials regard genuine demonic possession as an extremely rare phenomenon that is easily confounded with natural mental disturbances. Many times a person just needs spiritual or medical help, especially if drugs or other addictions are present. After the need of the person has been determined then the appropriate help will be met. In the circumstance of spiritual help, prayers may be offered, or the laying on of hands or a counseling session may be prescribed.

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THE ABOVE IS AT LEAST ONE AVENUE OF EVALUATION...IMHO cool

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #421 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 01:26am »

This is most definitely a serious subject,,,, if only the whole population knew,,,,,. Just sayin.

If those who had extraordinary events take place knew where the right place was to go and who to confide with, it may alleviate some of the trauma they carry. There's good points made on here and much to consider but the end result is what is best for those seeking answers.

Individual evaluation (by whom ?) in each case is important IMO. Who is qualified when they're evaluating the real scenario ? How will it be dealt with ?

Is the world ready for this ? No, IMHO.

« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2015, 01:34am by Cliff-67 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #422 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 3:23pm »

It is a serious subject. Far too serious to be left to amateurs like so-called abduction experts and ufologists who usually have no background in anything useful.
Example: 'Dr Jacobs is a history teacher and Budd Hopkins was an abstract artist.
How do those backgrounds help us to solve a complex enigma like alien abduction?
« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2015, 3:26pm by drwu23 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #423 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 6:21pm »

I don't think a persons background is so important,

Hopkins, who I've met, may even have had an advantage in this kind of thing as it is in itself very abstract. An abstract artist will by definition tend to think outside the box.

I imagine that the more important thing is to be able to gather all the relevant threads of the matter together and analyse the connections etc.

HAL
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #424 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 10:35pm »

on Jun 16th, 2015, 6:21pm, INT21 wrote:
I don't think a persons background is so important,

Hopkins, who I've met, may even have had an advantage in this kind of thing as it is in itself very abstract. An abstract artist will by definition tend to think outside the box.

I imagine that the more important thing is to be able to gather all the relevant threads of the matter together and analyse the connections etc.

HAL
INT21

Of course it's important. How does one even know to 'gather relevant threads ' when they don't even have any science or forensic background to do this..?
Would you ask a baker to solve a crime or a detective to cater a wedding?
This is exactly the problem with almost all of the investigations going on in the ufo arena. The people doing it have no expertise in science or investigating to begin with and most of them are believers to begin with which is biasing their investigation from the start.
I think JJ has mentioned this many times already.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #425 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 11:13pm »

I think the article below is applicable to this thread, and it serves as an example there are lots of reasons people say the things they say, other than their statements are accurate. There is not any single explanation as to why people report perceptions and memories of fantastic events, but lots of reasons.


Abducted by aliens? Neurologist finds similarities in alleged victims

The Hawaii Tribune Herald

June 13, 2015

Neurologist Dr. Michael B. Russo says that he initially didn’t know what to make of the first few patients who told him they’d been abducted by aliens from outer space.

“Their doctors sent them to me because they had headache pain or some sort of neurological problem,” he said. “Their primary physicians didn’t know they were having the problem due to abduction. But I would find out as part of my interview when I would ask how long they’ve had the problem, when did they first notice it. … Then they’d tell me.”

As part of his regular testing of patients, Russo used his $200,000 dense-array electroencephalography, or DEEG, machine — the only one of its kind in Hawaii — to map the electrical activity in the brains of his patients.

New patients, including several from the Big Island, came in with similar complaints about being abducted, leading Russo to wonder if there was anything the patients shared in common when it came to brain wave activity.

“The patients were just coming to me, and I started noticing patterns across the patients. I’ll see three or four patients with something that’s similar, and then I’ll try to find an explanation for what it is I’m seeing,” Russo said.

Each of the patients who claims to have been abducted by aliens and believed that a transmitter was implanted in their brain has shown abnormalities in brain wave activity in their parietal lobe.

“That’s the area that does visual and auditory integration into higher order thinking,” he said.

“The parietal areas process visual and auditory data, but they can intrinsically create it themselves and then send it to the pre-frontal region, where you become aware of it. … Our thinking is that there’s something in the parietal areas that’s generating (the feeling that transmissions from aliens are being sent to the brain).”

The electrical brain wave activity of the alien abductee patients looks similar to that of patients who have experienced traumatic brain injury, he said.

Russo, who operates offices in both Honolulu and Hilo, says that he tries to look at the patients’ experiences from their point of view and works with them to try to help alleviate their problem.

“I’m not casting judgment about what it is they’re saying and their history,” he said Friday.

“All I’m saying is that these areas of the brain are similar between patients. … Patients would not come to me if I did not take them seriously and their problems seriously. I don’t discount what they’ve said. I try to make the pain or discomfort or anxieties diminish.”

Russo said that when he is performing the DEEG tests, patients will often ask him if he can see the transmitter.

“‘No, I can’t see the transmitter,’ I’ll tell them. ‘But I can see the brain signals,” he said.

Russo said that so far, when he has explained his findings to his patients, they have responded well.

“It validates what they’re experiencing. It’s something that can be detected or measured using human equipment — most of what they’ve had is an extraterrestrial experience. So, I’m able to say, ‘Yes, I can see your brain and the area where there are communication difficulties,’” he said. “‘And I have medicines that may help the pain you’re experiencing or turn down or off the transmissions you’re experiencing.’”

Russo says he has experienced some success using various pharmacological therapies in alleviating the headache pains and feelings of receiving unwanted transmissions.

Russo will present his findings, which were co-authored with Ryan Nillo, Shane Endicott, Judith Profant and Melba C. Stetz, at the upcoming meeting of the Organization of Human Brain Mapping, held Sunday through Thursday at the Hawaii Convention Center.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #426 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 05:39am »

Drwu,

Maybe I should have said that the ability to analyse is more important than the actual occupation of the analyst. What the nice people in the job centres call 'transferable skills'.

There are many very highly educated ex-university people who can't get work in their chosen field and have to take what they can get whilst hoping something will come along.

There once was a saying that there are better musicians playing on the street corners of Tel Aviv than in the New York Philharmonic.

So the person who flips your burgers may actually be a cosmologist with a Phd. Would you deem him to be unsuitable to write a book on cosmology ?

...The people doing it have no expertise in science or investigating to begin with and most of them are believers to begin with which is biasing their investigation from the start...

How does one train someone in a field that the vast majority don't believe is a possibility ?

But what happens when a respected, say, psychoanalyst is forced to accept that abduction does happen ? Do we say 'well, know we know' or do we say 'he was probably a closet believer anyway' .

It is indeed a tricky one.

HAL
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #427 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 07:43am »

HAL,

PER DRWU...

TO WIT:

"which is biasing their investigation from the start"

IMHO...THAT BIAS IS A TWO WAY STREET ~ FROM BELIEVERS TO SKEPTICS ~ AS EACH GROUP OFTEN EAGERLY CLAIMS THEIR POSTION BASED ON A PREDISPOSITON...grin

"How does one train someone in a field that the vast majority don't believe is a possibility ?"

"But what happens when a respected, say, psychoanalyst is forced to accept that abduction does happen ? Do we say 'well, know we know' or do we say 'he was probably a closet believer anyway' ."

"It is indeed a tricky one."

OUSTANDING!

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@ JACK

TO WIT:

"As part of his regular testing of patients, Russo used his $200,000 dense-array electroencephalography, or DEEG, machine — the only one of its kind in Hawaii — to map the electrical activity in the brains of his patients."

“‘No, I can’t see the transmitter,’ I’ll tell them. ‘But I can see the brain signals,” he said."

I HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR YOU ~ IN LIEU OF THE ABOVE ~ DO YOU DISCOUNT ANY/ALL FORMS OF TELEPATHY ASSOCIATED WITH EXPERIENCERS/N.T.E.(NON TERRESTRIAL ENTITIES) ~ MOREOVER ~ IF YOUR ANSWER CONSIDERS SAME ~ WOULD SUCH >>> Russo used his $200,000 dense-array electroencephalography, or DEEG, machine <<< BE CALIBRATED TO FACTOR SUCH POTENTIALITY?

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SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #428 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 11:37am »

on Jun 17th, 2015, 05:39am, INT21 wrote:
Drwu,

Maybe I should have said that the ability to analyse is more important than the actual occupation of the analyst. What the nice people in the job centres call 'transferable skills'.

There are many very highly educated ex-university people who can't get work in their chosen field and have to take what they can get whilst hoping something will come along.

There once was a saying that there are better musicians playing on the street corners of Tel Aviv than in the New York Philharmonic.

So the person who flips your burgers may actually be a cosmologist with a Phd. Would you deem him to be unsuitable to write a book on cosmology ?

...The people doing it have no expertise in science or investigating to begin with and most of them are believers to begin with which is biasing their investigation from the start...

How does one train someone in a field that the vast majority don't believe is a possibility ?

But what happens when a respected, say, psychoanalyst is forced to accept that abduction does happen ? Do we say 'well, know we know' or do we say 'he was probably a closet believer anyway' .

It is indeed a tricky one.

HAL
INT21



You are moving the goal posts in that response but that's ok I get your point.
The abduction phenom and indeed the ufo phenom in general should be treated as any other scientific unknown or mystery and approached in this manner imho.
But sadly as many have pointed out over the years it attracts those who have an agenda or are believers to begin with (see Lure of the Edge by Denzler)and don't have any applicable skills to investigate it. They already have 'solved the problem' since they believe in aliens and are merely collecting data to support their belief. That's not science .
I'm not anti ufology or against most of those in the field. They all seem like decent people but for the most part they don't have any usefull skills to invesitgate such a complex enigma.

btw...Dr Vallee once said that what we need are teams of experts. Physicists, physicians, psychologists, forensic lab experts, folklorists and anthropologists...etc.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #429 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 11:50am »

on Jun 17th, 2015, 07:43am, ZETAR wrote:
HAL,


IMHO...THAT BIAS IS A TWO WAY STREET ~ FROM BELIEVERS TO SKEPTICS ~ AS EACH GROUP OFTEN EAGERLY CLAIMS THEIR POSTION BASED ON A PREDISPOSITON...grin
....................

"How does one train someone in a field that the vast majority don't believe is a possibility ?"

"But what happens when a respected, say, psychoanalyst is forced to accept that abduction does happen ? Do we say 'well, know we know' or do we say 'he was probably a closet believer anyway' ."

"It is indeed a tricky one."
.....................


I HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR YOU ~ IN LIEU OF THE ABOVE ~ DO YOU DISCOUNT ANY/ALL FORMS OF TELEPATHY ASSOCIATED WITH EXPERIENCERS/N.T.E.(NON TERRESTRIAL ENTITIES) ~ MOREOVER ~ IF YOUR ANSWER CONSIDERS SAME ~ WOULD SUCH >>> Russo used his $200,000 dense-array electroencephalography, or DEEG, machine <<< BE CALIBRATED TO FACTOR SUCH POTENTIALITY?



Firstly skeptics have no bias by definition so we want to use someone who is skeptic going into an investigation.
Debunkers are biased ...on that I will agree.
Believers are also biased.

We need people who have science training , forensic training , and investigative training. As well as medical professionals in both general medicine and psychiatry.
BTW...how does a 'respected psychoanalyst' accept abduction as genuine? Based on what? Anecdotal material? His or her personal belief? Is that valid? Because no one has ever provided anything in the way of hard evidence in a soft science like psychology regarding aliens.

And why should we accept an experiencers word that 'genuine telepathy' happened? Based on what empirical evidence? Again it's anecdotal, so we shouldn't act like it's genuine data. It's a story.
The DEEG does show empirical data of brain dysfunction.

I'm not saying we discount all anecdotal material....I think the people telling their tales did experience something. But it should not take priority over actual evidence that we might gather during the course of the investigation.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #430 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 2:35pm »

ZETAR,

Electroencephalography (EEG) simply allows the displaying of the electrical energy being active within the brain. It still has to be interpreted.
Today's technicians are becoming better at relating certain response patterns to certain stimuli. But many closely related stimuli can produce very similar results.

So while the EEG may show evidence of a particular trauma, it doesn't tell you what caused it.

Drwu,

My Psychoanalyst may be forced into the conclusion that, in the case of his patient, he had removed all other probable causes for the patient's (abductee's) claimed and nothing was left but to believe the something along the lines had happened.
He would be highly dissatisfied with this conclusion and would probably always have the thought in the back of his mind 'have I missed something ?'

Anecdotal information is, in the end, all we have simply because we cannot reproduce the alleged abduction.

I have mentioned before that, one day a few years ago, I was walking along and heard, crystal clear, a voice call my name. It was so clear I stopped and looked around expecting to find someone I knew stood behind me. There was no one there.

Now, was this a telepathic call ? If so, from whom ? Or was it a sign of a momentary wrong connection of a couple of brain synapses ? Who knows.

I will add that I do believe there is a possibility of telepathic communication at some level between people who are 'tuned' to a particular mental state. Not communication as in the form of one to one conversation, but the ability to know when someone is trying to get your attention.

To relate this to Zetar's question, you first have to know if alien life forms are even possible.

Maybe they are and are entirely in the mental plane without solid form.

There are those here that know I am struggling with this question.

HAL
INT21

Edit to correct ECG to EEG.
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #431 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 3:11pm »

HAL,

TO WIT:

"To relate this to Zetar's question, you first have to know if alien life forms are even possible.

Maybe they are and are entirely in the mental plane without solid form.

There are those here that know I am struggling with this question."

OK ~ WE ARE IN THE REALM WHICH I FIND QUITE INTERESTING ~ HYPOTHETICALLY ~ COULD AN ALIEN LIFE FORM EXIST AS PURE ENERGY ~ NO FORM ~ SHAPE ~ PLASMA?

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THIS...IN MY LAY SPECULATION ~ OPENS POSSIBILITIES IN AN AREA OF CONTINGENTS WHICH IS INTRIGUING...

SHALOM...Z

EDIT TO ADD:

"Maybe they are" ~ AMAZING ~ SUCH PROGRESS cool

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"Electroencephalography (ECG) simply allows the displaying of the electrical energy being active within the brain. It still has to be interpreted"

INDEED ~ MUCH LIKE RADAR BLIPS...

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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #432 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 7:17pm »

ZETAR,

Begs the question 'does the mind exist outside the brain ?

And if you answer 'yes' then the question becomes 'where' ?

HAL
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #433 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 7:33pm »

HAL,

TO WIT:

"Begs the question 'does the mind exist outside the brain ?

And if you answer 'yes' then the question becomes 'where'"

I'VE BEEN A ROSICRUCIAN IN SEARCH OF PERFECTION FOR DECADES ~ SO SUCH ASSIMILATES IN MY MIND COMFORTABLY...

"built on esoteric truths of the ancient past", which, "concealed from the average man, provide insight into nature, the physical universe and the spiritual realm"

MERELY ANOTHER BRICK IN THE WALL ~ NEVERTHELESS ~ PROVIDES INSIGHTS NECESSARY TO EVALUTE THE UNIMAGINABLE... cool ~ IMHO...

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" then the question becomes 'where'" ~ THAT MY FRIEND ~ MUST BE AN INDIVIDUAL JOURNEY cool

KEEP ON TRUCKIN...

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SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: Critical Analysis of Research of Alien Abducti
« Reply #434 on: Jun 17th, 2015, 8:32pm »

on Jun 17th, 2015, 07:43am, ZETAR wrote:
@ JACK

TO WIT:

"As part of his regular testing of patients, Russo used his $200,000 dense-array electroencephalography, or DEEG, machine — the only one of its kind in Hawaii — to map the electrical activity in the brains of his patients."

“‘No, I can’t see the transmitter,’ I’ll tell them. ‘But I can see the brain signals,” he said."

I HAVE ONE QUESTION FOR YOU ~ IN LIEU OF THE ABOVE ~ DO YOU DISCOUNT ANY/ALL FORMS OF TELEPATHY ASSOCIATED WITH EXPERIENCERS/N.T.E.(NON TERRESTRIAL ENTITIES) ~ MOREOVER ~ IF YOUR ANSWER CONSIDERS SAME ~ WOULD SUCH >>> Russo used his $200,000 dense-array electroencephalography, or DEEG, machine <<< BE CALIBRATED TO FACTOR SUCH POTENTIALITY?


I think that's a stretch. I'd agree with what drwu wrote. I think too often people are trying to force conclusions on the data that just aren't supported. Ideally one would work from the data forward, not from the conclusion backward.

I think it worth mentioning that the work Dr. Russo, the neurologist in the article I posted, is conducting is an excellent example of professionally treating the patient rather than conducting advocacy. Remember I cited the work of psychologist Dr. Morgan who warned of the dangers? Well, Russo is treating symptoms that can be observed and measured, with minimal concern of their origin. The content of the stories is beside the point. Rather than advocate for the reality or lack thereof of alien abduction, Russo is practicing medicine, circumstances that are within his field of expertise, as compared to trying to establish the extents of validity of any given person's statements.
« Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2015, 8:33pm by jjflash » User IP Logged

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