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jjflash
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xx The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Thread started on: May 17th, 2013, 3:43pm »

While many people choose to interpret various biblical passages as indicative of UFO-related events, certain scholars disagree with the interpretations, suggesting better understandings of language clear up the confusion. Dr. Michael Heiser, who holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible, adamantly stated on his blog UFO Religions and in his February, 2013 post, How Would a Biblical Writer Describe a UFO if He Saw One?, that not so much as a single instance of supposed biblical spaceships hold up to qualified review. Dr. Heiser offers readers Hebrew translations from original texts and I would recommend those interested in such circumstances give his work a look, as there is much more of it in addition to the referenced post.

The doctor recently announced that he will be appearing at the second Christian Symposium on Aliens, otherwise known as Ancient of Days 2013, from October 3-6 in Nashville, TN. Dr. Heiser will be conducting two lectures, The Divine Council, Giants, and a Return of the Nephilim?, which he emphasized to please note the question mark, and Paleobabble! The Role of Pseudo-Science and Bad Theology in Today's Popularized Alien Mythos.
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #1 on: May 28th, 2013, 2:50pm »

on May 17th, 2013, 3:43pm, jjflash wrote:
While many people choose to interpret various biblical passages as indicative of UFO-related events, certain scholars disagree with the interpretations, suggesting better understandings of language clear up the confusion. Dr. Michael Heiser, who holds a PhD in Hebrew Bible, adamantly stated on his blog UFO Religions and in his February, 2013 post, How Would a Biblical Writer Describe a UFO if He Saw One?, that not so much as a single instance of supposed biblical spaceships hold up to qualified review. Dr. Heiser offers readers Hebrew translations from original texts and I would recommend those interested in such circumstances give his work a look, as there is much more of it in addition to the referenced post.

The doctor recently announced that he will be appearing at the second Christian Symposium on Aliens, otherwise known as Ancient of Days 2013, from October 3-6 in Nashville, TN. Dr. Heiser will be conducting two lectures, The Divine Council, Giants, and a Return of the Nephilim?, which he emphasized to please note the question mark, and Paleobabble! The Role of Pseudo-Science and Bad Theology in Today's Popularized Alien Mythos.


I read the linked article by Dr. Heiser, Jjflash. Actually I was shocked because for whatever reason this scholarly gentleman is so disingenious as to make me momentarily doubt he is even a Christian. Does he think modern UFO lore constitutes a clear and present danger to the faith, necessitating extreme measures? Even a fib or two??

Of course the Bible in itself, as it was written down, contains no UFO observations, all things flying are either fowl of the air, wicked arrows flying by nght or Jahweh's miraculous manifestations. The Hebrews had no cosmology involving space or possible space aliens, nor would they acknowledge strange flying gods.


Logically one cannot expect to find descriptions of space ships.

Any flying object is defined by Faith and Torah, and thus never Unidentified.



Still, (and this is the problem the good dr. attempts to address), the Old Testament generations and their record keepers saw many objects flying. Furnaces, wheels, chariots. Safe to say that none of these would normally possess the power of flight, so to modern minds these are unidentified flying objects.

They are not REALLY chariots ascending to the sky, burning and light emitting ovens flying between Abram's divided sacrifices etc.

Nor do we automatically accept the notion that God flew inside objects, as part of religious interaction with the Jews.

Simply, it could be feverish imagination, some hallucination of devout believers, OR real sightings of extraordinary objects.

Either way, it is, remains, safe to say the Bible repeatedly describes UFOs (as seen through modern eyes).


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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #2 on: May 29th, 2013, 12:19pm »

on May 28th, 2013, 2:50pm, purr wrote:
Still, (and this is the problem the good dr. attempts to address), the Old Testament generations and their record keepers saw many objects flying. Furnaces, wheels, chariots. Safe to say that none of these would normally possess the power of flight, so to modern minds these are unidentified flying objects.

They are not REALLY chariots ascending to the sky, burning and light emitting ovens flying between Abram's divided sacrifices etc.

Nor do we automatically accept the notion that God flew inside objects, as part of religious interaction with the Jews.

Simply, it could be feverish imagination, some hallucination of devout believers, OR real sightings of extraordinary objects.


Hi, purr -

My interpretation is that one of the points put forth by Dr. Heiser and his peers is that the translations of such terms (as you cited) have been poorly executed. It is my understanding that some scholars assert there are rarely, if ever, any such terms and related circumstances misunderstood by those who are well educated in the use of the Hebrew language, but, rather, unfounded speculation resulting from the poor translations.

I am not knowledgable in either the Bible or Hebrew, so I have no particular stance on the matter. I have seen the topic debated fairly consistently over the years, as I suspect is the case with you and many others as well. It appears to me that, by and large, qualified language scholars tend to tell people there are no aliens represented in the Bible while the arguments nonetheless continue.

One of the points I think it is helpful for scholars such as Dr. Heiser to be making is that there are indeed alternative opinions, by scholars no less, to the more commonly discussed interpretations of alleged UFO-related events in the Bible. I think it is important for people within ufology to know that the more typically put forth stories of spaceships are not a given, and, for that, I appreciate the doctor's efforts.

I am of the opinion that commitments to accuracy are always the allie of truth. I think that accurately separating myth from actuality is the path to properly identifying what mysteries are genuine and deserve more attention. In order to do so, I think reviewing material as presented by Heiser is part of the process.
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #3 on: May 30th, 2013, 11:18am »

on May 29th, 2013, 12:19pm, jjflash wrote:
Hi, purr -

My interpretation is that one of the points put forth by Dr. Heiser and his peers is that the translations of such terms (as you cited) have been poorly executed. It is my understanding that some scholars assert there are rarely, if ever, any such terms and related circumstances misunderstood by those who are well educated in the use of the Hebrew language, but, rather, unfounded speculation resulting from the poor translations.

I am not knowledgable in either the Bible or Hebrew, so I have no particular stance on the matter. I have seen the topic debated fairly consistently over the years, as I suspect is the case with you and many others as well. It appears to me that, by and large, qualified language scholars tend to tell people there are no aliens represented in the Bible while the arguments nonetheless continue.

One of the points I think it is helpful for scholars such as Dr. Heiser to be making is that there are indeed alternative opinions, by scholars no less, to the more commonly discussed interpretations of alleged UFO-related events in the Bible. I think it is important for people within ufology to know that the more typically put forth stories of spaceships are not a given, and, for that, I appreciate the doctor's efforts.

I am of the opinion that commitments to accuracy are always the allie of truth. I think that accurately separating myth from actuality is the path to properly identifying what mysteries are genuine and deserve more attention. In order to do so, I think reviewing material as presented by Heiser is part of the process.


Hi Jjflash, I'm not taking issue with Dr. Heiser's freedom of speech, and just to be clear I appreciate you adding his views to our discussions. And I'm not contending his translation of Hebrew/Torah either. (Actually, I've a Strong's Concordance with Hebrew, Chaldee, Greek to English dictionaries on my book shelves as well cheesy, it's not Heiser's Hebrew I have problems with!)

It is Heiser's inferences and logic path which troubles me. First, for you and anyone not routinely scouring the Bible for UFO descriptions, here are some examples of Jews in Old Testament days seeing things, objects on the ground and off it.


"the Bible weirdly does describe (check out links below) 'chariots' and 'furnaces' flying, landing and taking off, while humans interact with those beings inside such Unidentified Flying Objects.


Abram and YAHWEH embark on a friendship of everlasting generations as described in Genesis 15

Moses goes up to the mountaintop to commune with YAHWEH (inside smoking furnace), and to receive two stone tablets with 'Ten Words' as described in Exodus 19 Exodus 24 Exodus 31 Exodus 32




2 Kings 2:11 AV

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Read in context



2 Kings 6:15-17 AV

And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Read in context"



Above scriptural excerpts are taken from the King James Version, a well accepted translation for Christian believers. Not to put too fine a point on it, it describes objects moving, lifting off the ground. Since Heiser seems to like the Ezekiel example: its wheels (he accepts the translation) are described both ON and also OFF the ground.

Simply, even incorporating Heiser's linguistic comment in the article, a range of objects in the Bible are seen by its Hebrew witnesses as off the ground, somehow lifted in the air. Since the laws of gravity dictate they should rest on or fall toward earth, these by definition are descriptions of unidentified flying objects.

Think: furnaces/ovens descending on a mountain, or 'moving' between Abram's sacrifices. Chariots and horses of fire alternately resting on a mountain slope or taking up a Prophet of Israel into the sky. All, if run-off-the-mill kitchen appliances or means of transport ought to be seen ON THE GROUND. The Bible takes them off the ground, Jj. As a result we do not know what they are, they fit: Unidentified.

My criticism of dr. Heiser isn't translation related, but concerns his bizarre, seemingly deceptive style of thinking and interpretation. He refutes the idea of Alien Spacecraft mentioned in the Bible: yet the Jews had no concept of Space as we know it!! It isn't, CANNOT be in that millennia old holy book.

He refutes the idea of objects said to fly: yet Jewish writers had not discovered flight or aviation, so only birds, arrows or divine agents were describled as flying. Objects were either on earth, or 'carried', 'lifted' by one with the power of flight. Be it birds. Be it the Jewish deity Jahweh or YHWH. There can't be 'flying objects' described in the Torah.

Heiser succesfully shows that many of the objects observed off the ground by the Bible authors are not round disks. Rather: they are square, rectangular and/or domed. (Only some do conform to the disk pattern: the wheels on their sides in Ezekiel.) This variety of shapes in his mind constitutes evidence that the objects seen moving off the ground in the Bible cannot be flying saucers, and therefore not space ships. But UFO proponents do not make these claims. Only that today we see objects of various shapes (cones, cylinders, disks, spheres, spheroids, cigars, rockets, rectangles etc.) moving through our atmosphere, defying identification.

The atmospheric objects recorded in the Bible do fit this in this category, imho.


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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #4 on: May 30th, 2013, 11:38am »

I am not exactly up on the bible so I am not positive but is there not a section where flying shields shooting fire were used to attack some city’s walls. This would indicate UFO.
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #5 on: May 30th, 2013, 11:49am »

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,13523.0.html
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #6 on: May 30th, 2013, 11:57am »

on May 30th, 2013, 11:38am, hyundisonata wrote:
I am not exactly up on the bible so I am not positive but is there not a section where flying shields shooting fire were used to attack some city’s walls. This would indicate UFO.


Those shields are historical, Hyundisonata, however they are from Alexander the Great's campaigns, not the Bible. I believe this awesome strategist, when unable to penetrate a city's walls, used huge, specially designed shields filled with propellant, flung from his war machines to finally weaken defenses and overcome that city.

No aliens in this case. Just one of the smartest warriors who ever lived doin his thing.


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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #7 on: May 30th, 2013, 2:23pm »

Jjflash, I almost left the following famous example out, since it has been quoted by UFO enthusiasts to distraction. It even was used in the Nicholas Cage movie Knowing, showing an alien craft with 'wheels within wheels' on the inside.

But for anyone who missed it, the purported Ezekiel wheels, or disks or 'UFOs' smiley :


Ezekiel 1:15-19 AV

Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.

Read in context


The key passages in this portion of Scripture are (you might check in the link in verse 17 and 21) in respect to the wheels that they went on their four sides, but did not turn/roll. Furthermore it is said of the wheels they moved synchronous with living creatures: as the creatures were lifted up from the ground, so were the wheels.

This seems to show that dr. Heiser's claim that the wheels were always on the ground, and used to roll a throne/cart forward are not accurate.

At some point the wheels are clearly off the earth's surface, they are described emphatically as MOVING on their sides, not rolling over the ground as normal wheels would.

The Ezekiel wheel scene in summary is of four very large, round, flat disks moving through the air.


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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #8 on: Jun 3rd, 2013, 12:16pm »

Awesome thread, and indeed, a great discussion.

Im not very familiar with Hebrew or the bible as well, but I have read the book The bible and Flying Saucers from Barry Downing and I can say itīs a worthy read.

Barry is a P.H.D. in religion and science togheter, and is an ancient astronaut proponent. He made an appearence at the Ancient Aliens series in 2009, in an episode about this particular subject.

I liked the way he wrote the book, and everything he questioned and pointed at it is very well organized. This guy knows what he is talking about, itīs nothing made by his mind only, unlike the tv show. Thatīs someone you can label as Ancient Astronaut theorist.

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Flying-Saucers-Second/dp/1569247455

Not very expensive, and I recommend it. Itīs a good introduction for the true Ancient Astronaut theory.

Cheers!
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #9 on: Jun 3rd, 2013, 2:18pm »

on Jun 3rd, 2013, 12:16pm, alvaroslash wrote:
Awesome thread, and indeed, a great discussion.

Im not very familiar with Hebrew or the bible as well, but I have read the book The bible and Flying Saucers from Barry Downing and I can say itīs a worthy read.

Barry is a P.H.D. in religion and science togheter, and is an ancient astronaut proponent. He made an appearence at the Ancient Aliens series in 2009, in an episode about this particular subject.

I liked the way he wrote the book, and everything he questioned and pointed at it is very well organized. This guy knows what he is talking about, itīs nothing made by his mind only, unlike the tv show. Thatīs someone you can label as Ancient Astronaut theorist.

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Flying-Saucers-Second/dp/1569247455

Not very expensive, and I recommend it. Itīs a good introduction for the true Ancient Astronaut theory.

Cheers!


I agree, Allvaro! I have read excerpts and interviews with Downing and he indeed has some interesting insights into Aliens and UFOs.

Good book to invest in, wouldn't it be nice if there was a free download somewhere...

smiley

edit: ah located a link for The Bible and Flying Saucers here.


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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #10 on: Jun 5th, 2013, 05:52am »

Any discussion of the "bible" is problematic, especially if an attempt is being made to utilize any of its content as a form of consistent historical record. It generates an endless litany of questions, such as: which translation is being used, and from which canon...the Vulgate? The Orthodox bible? Are the so-called apocrypha or pseudepigrapha referenced? It's relevance as a religious text isn't questioned; but as a historical reference, too many issues arise.

Modes of writing employed in various parts of the literature that was combined together to form the myriad of Christian "bibles" are largely misunderstood, and that leads to numerous errors and inconsistencies in translation. The apocalyptic style in particular represents a host of problems, since that highly allegorical writing style references imagery and themes impossible to understand to modern readers. The passages might indeed appear interesting on the surface, but the lack of external collaboration with the majority of events described in the older Hebrew passages and more recent Greek letters makes it an unreliable resource to use in research.
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #11 on: Jun 5th, 2013, 2:48pm »

on Jun 5th, 2013, 05:52am, bewildered wrote:
Any discussion of the "bible" is problematic, especially if an attempt is being made to utilize any of its content as a form of consistent historical record. It generates an endless litany of questions, such as: which translation is being used, and from which canon...the Vulgate? The Orthodox bible? Are the so-called apocrypha or pseudepigrapha referenced? It's relevance as a religious text isn't questioned; but as a historical reference, too many issues arise.

Modes of writing employed in various parts of the literature that was combined together to form the myriad of Christian "bibles" are largely misunderstood, and that leads to numerous errors and inconsistencies in translation. The apocalyptic style in particular represents a host of problems, since that highly allegorical writing style references imagery and themes impossible to understand to modern readers. The passages might indeed appear interesting on the surface, but the lack of external collaboration with the majority of events described in the older Hebrew passages and more recent Greek letters makes it an unreliable resource to use in research.


You could well be correct on that, Bewildered, and I don't think Jjflash or myself have touched upon historicity yet within this topic's framework.

But the linked pieces by Dr. Heiser in starter post, as commented by Jj, hold that no UFOs or spaceships or flying saucers are in the Bible (=as in 'written' in that book).

I argued (read back if you can find the time) that unidentified flying objects do get described, disagreeing with Heiser. Yet narrowly: in the sense of 'written in the text'. I can find no conflict with either Heiser's scholarly translations, or with well known Bible translations (like the King James Version) in my take on things.


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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #12 on: Jun 6th, 2013, 12:10pm »

on Jun 3rd, 2013, 2:18pm, purr wrote:
I agree, Allvaro! I have read excerpts and interviews with Downing and he indeed has some interesting insights into Aliens and UFOs.

Good book to invest in, wouldn't it be nice if there was a free download somewhere...

smiley

edit: ah located a link for The Bible and Flying Saucers here.


purr


Way to go Purr! I have the pdf file at my computer, and I thought about posting a link here to download it, but I was afraid it is against the rules to do such thing!

I totally recommend downloading it! Itīs a good read!


Cheers!
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #13 on: Sep 6th, 2013, 12:34pm »

It seems that we as human beings are hardwired to look at the sky, want to seek out and search space as an expansion of looking outward toward the stars.... something is perhaps hardwired inside our psyches to look to the stars? Why? That is an interesting question to ponder perhaps. We are intrigued to explore land and sea, but when it comes to the stars..... it is probably the biggest of our unknowns, yet the ancients left drawing and signs indicative that they were visited by space people perhaps.

I wonder how may artifacts are still hidden or buried in caves or caverns around the world that are yet to still be discovered?

EBS
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xx Re: The Bible and Alleged UFO Events
« Reply #14 on: Oct 18th, 2014, 10:36am »

From Dr. Michael Heiser at 'UFO Religions':


Helicopters and Spaceships in Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs?

UFO Religions

October 17, 2014

Hardly.

When it comes to internet mythology about alleged alien assistance to the ancient Egyptians, the hieroglyphs in the picture are ground zero. As with the case of the lightbulb in Egyptian art, and the mis-identified picture of an alien grey in an Egyptian wall painting, the claim that there were technologically advanced flying craft in ancient Egypt is utterly bogus.

The glyphs in question are in the temple of Seti I at Abydos. I have blogged about these glyphs before, explaining that they are a well-known and classic instance of hieroglyphic superimposition — a palimpset. In briefest terms, the panel in Seti I’s tomb on which the current glyphs was originally carved with a set of “normal” hieroglyphs. At a subsequent point in time, the glyphs were plastered over and re-carved — a well-known phenomenon in ancient Egyptian monumental writing. After centuries of time, the plaster came off, revealing what we see now — two sets of hieroglyphs superimposed. That is why some of the shapes on this panel are unlike any others in Egypt.

The mdw-ntr website has a detailed, thorough, splendidly illustrated step-by-step explanation of this process. It is absolutely certain that these hieroglyphs are the result of carving one set of glyphs over another for a simple reason: each set of glyphs is known from other texts. It is quite easy to illustrate how the “helicopter” came about from both sets of glyphs. If you want the truth, it’s all here.

See original post for supporting links:

http://drmsh.com/2014/10/17/helicopters-and-spaceships-in-ancient-egyptian-hieroglyphs/

=============================================

As referenced by Dr. Heiser, the mdw-ntr website is operated by Medew Netcher and is rich in Egyptian-related content, including study courses, language, artifacts and more. The specific post referenced, 'Aliens And Space Crafts in Ancient Egyptian Temple - Explained', may (and should, if you're interested in alleged UFOs in Egyptian glyphs) be viewed at:

http://mdw-ntr.com/blogs/all-categories/articles/item/2-aliens-and-space-crafts-in-ancient-egyptian-temple-debunked#.VEKGwGddWXs

On a related note, UFO Casebook's DrDil did an informative and well researched piece in 2007 titled, 'UFO's In Sacred Works Of Art', in which the author clarified some misinterpretations commonly held. The post may be viewed at:

http://ufodigest.com/news/0707/sacredart.html
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