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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM  (Read 1216 times)
GhostofEd
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #15 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 8:50pm »

I've read the Nature articles and I still see no beef. They have tried to reconstruct the original from the pieces they had. They noticed certain ratios that could coincide with moon, sun and some planet cycles. Nothing really new there. It should be noted that of the 37 gear wheels 7 are acknowledged hypothetical.

I am not questioning that this device could have been used to try and replicate planetary, sun or moon motions as observed at the time. My beef is the claim that this is some perfect mechanical astronomical calculator. How precise are these results and were the now know motions used to back engineer the hypothetical gears. Perhaps the more important question is are these motions characteristic of a Ptolemaic, Copernican or Kepler model? There are instances of mechanical models using discs and rings in the past that give a rudimentary simulation but they fall short of being able to account for elliptical orbits. Such models became extremely complex and abandoned. The talk of this machine does not dwell into the actual accuracy of the reconstructed device - at least what I've been able to find. I'd like to see some data showing the actual motions vs. what this machine is believed to reproduce. One would think it would be a true marvel if it was so precise. That there is little to no published findings regarding that raises a red flag for me.

Perhaps it is not the research team pressing that this is some extraordinary device but rather the ancient alien advocates. So I still have to ask "Where's the beef?"
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #16 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 07:02am »

Skeptoid's item seems a bit contradictory to me.

...Most archaeologists agree that this particular device was neither unique nor the first of its kind. Two factors contribute to this: First, its design is quite refined, which is not consistent with a prototype. Second, an object as expensive and complex as this would typically be made in a series in order to recover the costs of design. Why, then, are its siblings not found? Probably because they were made of bronze, and bronze was highly recyclable and valuable. Few commonplace bronze objects from the ancient world survive for this reason, except for those that were lost at sea and thus escaped recycling. If there were other computational devices made in the period, it is not surprising to archaeologists that they were lost to history and are unknown.

1, Yet they can't produce another one.
2, They admit it should have had predecessors.
3, it seems odd that all preceding items and bits of prototypes should have been melted down. They made a devise of great significance and of great use to the astronomers and sailors of their time. then stopped.

Then we end up back at the beginning with conjecture. There may have been others, but they were all lost.

It was a very good piece of engineering that apparently wasn't followed up. Seems very strange.

Something isn't right.

JJ,

I don't see anyone directly saying that the thing was of otherworldly origin.
My own feeling is that it is indeed man made, but not when it was claimed to be.
We have examples of simple astrolabes etc from centuries ago. But non of them come anywhere near the Anti Kythera mechanism for complexity.

Producing a copy of the machine, now the number of teeth is known, should present today's instrument makers with no difficulty.

The part about the number of teeth being something of a guess is a red herring.
On small multi tooth gears in that state it would have been almost impossible for many of the teeth to be countable. I think the reasoning, as described in the documentary, makes sense. Just one tooth out and the thing would not make sense.

I do take it that everyone who is contributing to this post has actually watched the documentary on it ?

Ed, this means you.
I am taking it from you writings that you have read up on the devise, but not seen the documentary that covers the investigation. Am I correct ?

HAL
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #17 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 07:40am »

HAL/INT21,
I think you are right, when you said, there is something wrong with this
"story"

NITTY GRITTING
time

At the time this devise was allegedly made by man, (MY VOTE MAN MADE), what model of
EARTH was most popular?

1<>HELIOCENTRIC
2<>GEOCENTRIC
3<>FLAT EARTH

not to mention
SOLAR ANALEMMA

Should we trust what we see, or have been been led to what we believe?

Thanks HAL
grin
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #18 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 08:30am »

Guys, here's a Nov., 2014, article about the device that ran in the NYT (H/T 'Doubtful News'). It contains links to such items as papers that have been published on the device and its dating.

If you're going to dispute the findings of such papers, even in a recreational capacity such as this forum, I think it would be necessary to specify why and in favor of what. Other than that, I don't really see what there is to say other than it's a somewhat interesting representation of mechanics and astronomy of its day.
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #19 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 08:36am »

on Aug 23rd, 2015, 8:12pm, jjflash wrote:
Hmmm... I dunno, guys... A number of points seem to be selectively omitted from consideration.

It's being implied that there is something unusual or even extraordinary about the making of the device, but it is not being specifically stated exactly what that is believed to be. If it is believed the mechanism was created by or with the assistance of something other than humankind, it should be specifically stated, else you're requesting the rest of us either support or counter an argument that is not actually even being made.

The proof that the device was made by humans is simply that it exists. That would be high hand to beat.

There is no reason to suppose otherwise unless extraordinary evidence demanded so. Is it being suggested that alien technology involved brass gears?

As for the curious dating and seeming lack of apparent prototypes of the device, that was acknowledged and addressed by Skeptoid. That seems to be rejected without acknowledgment in favor of supposition that is not clarified.

If some of you want to speculate or believe the device has fantastic origins, you're of course entitled to do so. But if you expect others to agree with your beliefs, it would be necessary to clarify them and support them. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to suppose the device is anything more than a quite man-made item, clever as it may arguably be.


Well said.....that just about sums it up.
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #20 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 1:49pm »

Hi Folks -

I would think a more realistic approach could be taken to get an idea of how amazing this machine is.

Consider the every day life of a scientist in the BC era. Think of his understanding of the world and the moon and the sun and the planets in our solar system, as well as galaxies and other perplexing things in the cosmos.

Most of these things were interpreted with a scientific view connected to a pagan [belief in many gods] religious view.

To me this machine represents a much more defined scientific view [just the facts ma'am] as opposed to the normal view of religious based astronomy as was the normal way of viewing these things.

The only thing to me that seems to be off here is the way we view our human history. Time and time again historians have been found to leave out gapping holes left unanswered.

Is this machine a remarkable achievement? Absolutely. I tell you what; I challenge any one here to go in to their work room, shed, or garage, and build this machine out of the basic materials that was used for the machine in the ancient times, and to get it to read astronomical recordings.

Who ever created that machine was an absolute genius and would have given Tesla and Einstein a run for their money... had that ancient scientist been alive in their times, he would have been a household name today.
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #21 on: Sep 19th, 2016, 12:25pm »

Human skeleton found on famed Antikythera shipwreck

Two-thousand-year-old bones could yield first DNA from an ancient shipwreck victim.

Jo Marchant
19 September 2016

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Divers examine human bones excavated from the Antikythera shipwreck. Brett Seymour, EUA/WHOI/ARGO

Hannes Schroeder snaps on two pairs of blue latex gloves, then wipes his hands with a solution of bleach. In front of him is a large Tupperware box full of plastic bags that each contain sea water and a piece of red-stained bone. He lifts one out and inspects its contents as several archaeologists hover behind, waiting for his verdict. They’re hoping he can pull off a feat never attempted before — DNA analysis on someone who has been under the sea for 2,000 years.

Through the window, sunlight sparkles on cobalt water. The researchers are on the tiny Greek island of Antikythera, a 10-minute boat ride from the wreckage of a 2,000-year-old merchant ship. Discovered by sponge divers in 1900, the wreck was the first ever investigated by archaeologists. Its most famous bounty to date has been a surprisingly sophisticated clockwork device that modelled the motions of the Sun, Moon and planets in the sky — dubbed the ‘Antikythera mechanism’.

But on 31 August this year, investigators made another groundbreaking discovery: a human skeleton, buried under around half a metre of pottery sherds and sand. “We’re thrilled,” says Brendan Foley, an underwater archaeologist at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Massachusetts, and co-director of the excavations team. “We don’t know of anything else like it.”

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A partial skull, with three teeth, is among the human remains found at the Antikythera wreck. Brett Seymour, EUA/WHOI/ARGO

Within days of the find, Foley invited Schroeder, an expert in ancient-DNA analysis from the Natural History Museum of Denmark in Copenhagen, to assess whether genetic material might be extracted from the bones. On his way to Antikythera, Schroeder was doubtful. But as he removes the bones from their bags he is pleasantly surprised. The material is a little chalky, but overall looks well preserved. “It doesn’t look like bone that’s 2,000 years old,” he says. Then, sifting through several large pieces of skull, he finds both petrous bones — dense nuggets behind the ear that preserve DNA better than other parts of the skeleton or the teeth. “It’s amazing you guys found that,” Schroeder says. “If there’s any DNA, then from what we know, it’ll be there.”

Schroeder agrees to go ahead with DNA extraction when permission is granted by the Greek authorities. It would take about a week to find out whether the sample contains any DNA, he says: then perhaps a couple of months to sequence it and analyse the results.

For Schroeder, the discovery gives him the chance to push the boundaries of ancient-DNA studies. So far, most have been conducted on samples from cold climates such as northern Europe. “I’ve been trying to push the application of ancient DNA into environments where people don’t usually look for DNA,” he says. (He was part of a team that last year published the first Mediterranean ancient genome, of a Neolithic individual from Spain.)

Foley and the archaeologists, meanwhile, are elated by the chance to learn more about the people on board the first-century bc ship, which carried luxury items from the eastern Mediterranean, probably intended for wealthy buyers in Rome.

Rare discovery
The skeleton discovery is a rare find, agrees Mark Dunkley, an underwater archaeologist from the London-based heritage organization Historic England. Unless covered by sediment or otherwise protected, the bodies of shipwreck victims are usually swept away and decay, or are eaten by fish. Complete skeletons have been recovered from younger ships, such as the sixteenth-century English warship the Mary Rose and the seventeenth-century Vasa in Sweden. Both sank in mud, close to port. But “the farther you go back, the rarer it is”, says Dunkley.

Only a handful of examples of human remains have been found on ancient wrecks, says archaeologist Dimitris Kourkoumelis of the Greek Ephorate of Underwater Antiquities, who collaborates with Foley. They include a skull found inside a Roman soldier’s helmet near Sardinia, and a skeleton reportedly discovered inside a sunken sarcophagus near the Greek island of Syrna (although the bones disappeared before the find could be confirmed).

In fact, the best-documented example is the Antikythera wreck itself: scattered bones were found by the French marine explorer Jacques Cousteau, who excavated here in 1976. Argyro Nafplioti, an osteoarchaeologist at the University of Cambridge, UK, concluded that the remains came from at least four individuals, including a young man, a woman and a teenager of unknown sex.

At the wreck site, only broken pots now remain on the sea floor — the sponge divers recovered all artefacts visible on the seabed in 1900–01. But Foley thinks that much of the ship’s cargo may be buried under the sediment. His team, including expert technical divers and members of the Greek archaeological service, relocated and mapped the 50-metre-deep site before beginning their own excavations in 2014. They have found items such as wine jars, glassware, two bronze spears from statues, gold jewellery and table jugs used by the crew (see ‘Ancient bounty’). The divers have also recovered ship components including enormous anchors and a teardrop-shaped lead weight, found in June, that may be the first known example of what ancient texts describe as a ‘war dolphin’ — a defensive weapon carried by merchant vessels to smash hostile ships.

The skeleton uncovered in August consists of a partial skull with three teeth, two arm bones, several rib pieces and two femurs, all apparently from the same person. Foley’s team plans further excavations to see whether more bones are still under the sand.

That so many individuals have been found at Antikythera — when most wrecks yield none — may be partly because few other wrecks have been as exhaustively investigated. But the researchers think it also reveals something about how the ship sank. This was a huge vessel for its time, perhaps more than 40 metres long, says Foley, with multiple decks and many people on board. The wreck is close to shore, at the foot of the island’s steep cliffs. He concludes that a storm smashed the ship against the rocks so that it broke up and sank before people had a chance to react. “We think it was such a violent wrecking event, people got trapped below decks.”

The individuals found at Antikythera could be from the crew, which would probably have consisted of 15–20 people on a ship this size. Greek and Roman merchant ships also commonly carried passengers, and sometimes slaves. One reason people get trapped inside shipwrecks is if they are chained, points out Dunkley. “The crew would be able to get off relatively fast. Those shackled would have no opportunity to escape.” Intriguingly, the recently discovered bones were surrounded by corroded iron objects, so far unidentified; the iron oxide has stained the bones amber red.

Schroeder says that because ancient underwater remains are so rare, DNA analysis on such samples using state-of-the-art techniques has barely been tried. (Analyses were conducted on skeletons from the Mary Rose and the Vasa, but specialists no longer see those methods — based on amplifying DNA using a method called PCR — as reliable, because it is too difficult to distinguish ancient DNA from modern contamination.) Exceptions include analyses on 8,000-year-old wheat from a submerged site off the English coast (although these results have been questioned because the DNA did not show the expected age-related damage), and mitochondrial DNA from a 12,000-year-old skeleton found in a freshwater sinkhole in Mexico.

Finding undisturbed remains such as those at Antikythera is crucial because it offers the opportunity to extract any DNA in the best possible condition. Previously salvaged bones are not ideal for analysis because they have often been washed, treated with conservation mater¬ials or kept in warm conditions (all of which can destroy fragile DNA), or handled in a way that contaminates them.

Schroeder guesses from the skeleton’s fairly robust femur and unworn teeth that the individual was a young man. As well as confirming the person’s gender, DNA from the Antikythera bones could provide information about characteristics from hair and eye colour to ancestry and geographic origin. In the past few years, modern genome sequences have revealed that genetic variation in populations mirrors geography, says Schroeder. He and others are now starting to look at how ancient individuals fit on that map, to reconstruct past population movements. Would the shipwreck victim look more Greek-Italian or Near Eastern, he wonders?

Over dinner, the researchers decide to nickname the bones’ owner Pamphilos, after a name found neatly scratched on a wine cup from the wreck. “Your mind starts spinning,” says Schroeder. “Who were those people who crossed the Mediterranean 2,000 years ago? Maybe one of them was the astronomer who owned the mechanism.”

http://www.nature.com/news/human-skeleton-found-on-famed-antikythera-shipwreck-1.20632?WT.ec_id=NEWSDAILY-20160919

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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #22 on: Jul 7th, 2017, 4:01pm »



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLPVCJjTNgk&feature=share

Just throwin' this in...

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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #23 on: Jul 7th, 2017, 5:54pm »

Some of you may find this interesting.



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCworsKCR-Sx6R6-BnIjS2MA

HAL
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In the next episode we start building our own fusion reactor. wink
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #24 on: Jul 7th, 2017, 6:00pm »

Archangel,

..Is this machine a remarkable achievement? Absolutely. I tell you what; I challenge any one here to go in to their work room, shed, or garage, and build this machine out of the basic materials that was used for the machine in the ancient times, and to get it to read astronomical recordings.

Who ever created that machine was an absolute genius and would have given Tesla and Einstein a run for their money... had that ancient scientist been alive in their times, he would have been a household name today...

So why only one ?

Why no other miniature geared devises to assist navigation amongst sea faring nations ?

HAL
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #25 on: Jul 7th, 2017, 6:03pm »

...would have given Tesla and Einstein a run for their money..

But few people know what Tesla's real contribution was; though they experience it every day.

Anyone care to guess ?

HAL
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #26 on: Jul 7th, 2017, 6:09pm »

I have not, yet looked or watched the links
you all have linked,
I don't even have to guess.

NO

It is simple and complicated at the same time.

369

tongue

MW
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #27 on: Jul 11th, 2017, 12:34am »

on Jul 7th, 2017, 5:54pm, INT21 wrote:
Some of you may find this interesting.



https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCworsKCR-Sx6R6-BnIjS2MA

HAL
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In the next episode we start building our own fusion reactor. wink


Darn it Hal ! rolleyes

I was hoping for an alcubierre drive or sumpin. tongue



wink kiss




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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #28 on: Jul 11th, 2017, 08:34am »

laugh

This is interesting too....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_astronomical_clock


It took a lickin' tongue

« Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2017, 09:31am by Cliff-67 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #29 on: Jul 11th, 2017, 09:44am »

AN ANTIKYTHERA GOOD MORNING TO ONE AND ALL wink

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At the least, it does seem to prove that ancient people possessed a level of scientific acumen far greater than previously thought by mainstream historians.

http://www.factfictionandconjecture.ca/files/antikythera_mechanism.html

SHALOM...Z
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