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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Roswell question.  (Read 18375 times)
HAL9000
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #45 on: Oct 29th, 2011, 2:03pm »

Bonehead,

...people are unlikely to tell tall tales on their death-beds. That generally is the time for truth and confession...

Not necessarily so. If the thruth will harm those you love or are protecting then there is no reason to tell it. After all, they will still be around to face the consequences.

Icepick,

Note I said 'in a triangle' There was no indication of any structure behind them. But it was the middle of the night, so something may have been there.

I don't buy into this Nazi super scientists theory.

First, They weren't developing a bomb at that stage, They hadn't even got a pile to go critical. The evidence suggests that it is probable that if they had it would have exploded in their faces due to insufficient control.

Next, the disc shaped planes. Not efficient designs. More like engineers pipe dreams. Also the US (and UK) versions of these were not sucessfull. And they were powered by pretty bog-standard engines that anyone would have recognised in a pile of wreckage.

The Luftwaffe had a very good jet, But there again, standard Whittle design. The rocket plane was simply a rocket with wings and guns. Extremely limited , very dangerous to fuel and fly. and only good for defence.

SO really there is nothing more advanced than what Von Braun and his crew could produce. And they were derivitives of the Goddard rockets.

As far as rocketry was concerned, the V2 was the crown of creation at the time. All else was just glossy sketches and sci-fi thinking.
The same line of thinking carried on through the Dan Dare years of the fifties. After that, engineers began to see how hard it was to turn these dreams into reality.

Why do you think the Russians are still using the same old heavy lift vehicle ? Because it works.
This is worth thinking about.
The Shuttle has been and gone. If the US had anything better they would use it. And remember the Russians were only months behind the US in the bomb race. Plus they built the biggest. So we can be fairly sure that they are in a similar position relative to,the US secret planes program.

HAL
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HAL9000
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #46 on: Oct 29th, 2011, 2:17pm »

Bonehead,

...So, you are simply believing what you are willing to believe and discounting other cases for subjective and arbitrary reasons having nothing at all to do with "solid evidence". You are only chasing phantoms with phantom "logic".


You keep hiding behind this kind of pronouncement. Are we to assume that you think that the whole ufo phenomena is simply pscycological ? All in the mind ? Is anyone who considers there to be a physical reality to this (or even to reality itself) to be misguided; deluded even ?

You don't really have an explanation for what people claim to have seen as 'nuts and bolts' objects but are quite ready to go allong with any 'spiritual' reason for their presence.

In the 64 years since Kenneth Arnold's sighting, not single shred of irrefutable "hard" UFO evidence has emerged. Your religious faith is duly noted. My guess is, after 64 years of nothing, that your "solid evidence" will not be forthcoming..

What about JAL1628 ?

Do bear in mind the there is ... not single shred of irrefutable.. for the existance of God either.

HAL
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #47 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 01:12am »

on Oct 29th, 2011, 01:38am, icepick wrote:
Beeleaver;

As a response let me point a couple of things out. Well, maybe more:

If you have noticed, you should realize that when I believe a report to be false, it is never one of the standard debunks that convinced me. I always follow my own observations. While true investigation has shown some reports to be false, debunkers never have more to offer than believers do in this case, opinion.

I once tried hard to believe many of the Roswell accounts, but the case won't let me. For one, many of these contradict another. Not to say they are lying, rather that it probably shows what time does to memory. For another, no matter how credible the witness, testimony does not equate to proof without evidence to back it up.

You should know from many of my posts that I do believe many reports. Even some of the more fantastic ones. Sometimes one's subconscious screams truth. I listen to my gut. In matters where proof is available, it has never failed me.

You should also realize I don't dismiss anything out of hand, only with reason. Even Bigfoot reports, despite having never seen anything to support it, after living about forty years of outdoor life in Bigfoot central. I know the standard disclaimer to be false, things do vanish forever in dense forests. Including people. In 1990 a wrecked WWII fighter was found 1/4 mile off the end of a runway west of here. A logger falling timber found it. They searched for it for days when it was lost, and they knew it was on approach. Our forest is bona fide triple canopy with undergrowth here. I do see where such a creature could exist. Just don't show me that monkey suit video making the rounds on youtube, okay? I know a human gait when I see it and that video ...... well it's not the Patterson Film. I wouldn't be surprised if Sasquatch were found.

I could go on, but it would get repetitive. I only responded strongly because you used a denial I know you realized was wrong. Making light of Nazi research. In other threads you have indicated you're aware of some of the strange research they were into. And this should concern you, because that research came here at war's end.

I'm not trying to change your mind, only state my belief and why I have it. In this case that won't change until I see something above and beyond what we know now. A document from government archives that isn't obviously scanned might do it, it all depends. You can Photoshop documents too after all.

You might find my views on this case strange, because I'm always so quick to point out that the one article commonly seen about it known to be genuine was staged. The picture from the original story can't be the debris in question. That is obviously a balloon, an object commonly seen by the locals around Roswell. Considering that, I can't see one of them failing to recognize it for what it was. Even the biggest hick has a working brain. Whatever the reason, that picture was staged. But that determines nothing other than the military covering the trail. Like a mother bear protecting her young.


Icepick these are valid points you make and I respect that.
I do not understand your reasoning, and thats cool too.
I think that any scientist involved in a super secret aerial project that got away from them and crashed nearby would have been on scene. In roswell we hear minimal reports of Civilian Scientists suddenly showing up. Thats why I have never placed credence in the Los Alamos connection. Although there were three flights apparently to Los Alamos, shortly after the crash... IDK I think this would have been handled differently. The Military covered something up, thats all we know. Solid proof is a relative term. Some feel less empirical about it. Some dont, its all good.
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #48 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 01:51am »

Well that's just it Beeleaver, in all reality, we only know one positive fact about this case, don't we? Something crashed in Roswell, back in the summer of '47. I believe one reason the interest is so strong is because Hollywood got their hands on it. That has placed an incorrect image in many minds maybe?

A good example there is Wyatt Earp, a famous (sometimes) frontier marshal. How well known is the fact that his primary occupations were gambler and gunslinger, in that order? If his best buddy had not been that Rhodes Scholar educated extreme gambler and gunslinger, Doc Holliday, we might have lost site of this fact altogether.

Anyway, enough debate. I respect your opinions as well. After all, opinion is all we have here. It does get frustrating, does it not? Unfortunately, time most likely will not tell in this case. For all the track covering effort the government has put in this case, it's my opinion that staged picture of an officer with material from a balloon was a stroke of genius. It has even led the believers astray, causing them to waste years speculating how a spacecraft could be made from a thin material that sounds suspiciously like Mylar. Which is great balloon material BTW.

Have I also pointed out that I seriously doubt the locals would have been taken in by that? With all those Skyhook balloons being launched near there, I'm positive they would have figured out a balloon had crashed from the debris. People do have great cognitive powers, right?

You should stick to your convictions. They are yours after all. Since you don't seem to understand my reasoning, I will point it out again. The near rabid territorial nature of the military in this case smacks of this precise attitude I saw in the army (I had the honor of leading a patrol where we were not supposed to be, twice a month. And I saw how they would get if a war correspondent tried to sniff it out). Maybe that creates a bias for me, but I doubt it. The military is very habitual.

Yes, it would be nice to know. I would like to see the gun camera footage of the Foo Fighters too. Sadly, they seem unwilling to release anything about either.

Take care
Tim
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #49 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 02:19am »

Hal, you could call every scientist back then super. Be realistic here. War is quite the motivator. Especially that war. Technology took a Quantum leap then.

The Nazis were working on far more exotic vehicles than the well known ones. Do you actually think they were alone? For example, they had a flying wing. We had a flying wing. The Russians were trying hard to design one. But VTOL was where the effort was. I'm talking manned vehicles BTW, not rockets. The Nazis were placing an extreme effort in this, as they were rapidly losing tarmac.

Speculation not withstanding, they did have the bell project too. But in all reality, we don't know what it was. It may not have even involved flight. The only thing the public knows, is that they had a project with a bell shaped object as the centerpiece. People only assume it was a flying bell, and that could easily be a red herring, right?

But Werner's team was pretty small. Scientists and technicians brought here numbered in the tens of thousands. Why didn't a master war criminal like Hans Kammler even have his name mentioned at Nuremburg? He designed the ovens, and knew what they were for. Did his position as head of all research have anything to do with that?

In 1945 the public didn't even dream there were that many. But I guarantee you they were working on a lot of exotic stuff we've never heard about.

BTW: JAL 1628? I agree. That has to be genuine. That hull design has to be far beyond our abilities. Plus that air force radar that picked it up? Do you know how sophisticated it is/was. It can identify any known plane by comparing radar cross section and counting the blades on a spinning turbine from a couple hundred miles out. Unbelievable stuff. Good old John Walker sold it to the Russians, so everybody has it now. I'm sure it had a good profile to look at. There must be a detailed report somewhere.
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #50 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 02:20am »

Bonehead, I was being sarcastic. No need to back off anything.
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #51 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:05am »

Just throwing in my 2 cents here but I have always been on the fence about Roswell.
I started reading John Alexander's new book and in it he tells how he met Dr Teller, the leading physicist along with Oppenheimer, working on these projects at the time and spent some time with him and they talked about Roswell. Dr Teller acted like he had not heard about it and said if an alien ship had crashed there in '47 he would have definitely been called in to examine it along with other scientist. He was not. Though Dr Teller could have been lying, Alexander, an experienced intel officer for many years, said he thought he was being genuine based on his reactions and body language in the conversation.
For this and other reasons reagarding things I have read I remain unconvinced this was a genuine alien craft that crashed. Something happened ...but alien space ship...?
« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:10am by drwu23 » User IP Logged

grassyknoll
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #52 on: Nov 2nd, 2011, 08:55am »

i don't wonder why bj. not at all.

.. i do wonder why when the "wreckage" was found, why it was absent of string/line holding the radar reflectors.

funny..? ..not sure brazel, haut, marcell etc.. ever mentioned it was "..all this material was lined up connected to a long piece of string".

mogul my ass.

hahahahahahahahahaha.......
we are a joke/powerless.
(that said, i think aliens are not so nice, and am not surprised that we are not told the truth)

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"..looked like tinfoil, we tried to burn it, it wouldn't burn.
..we tried to bend it, it wouldn't bend.."

it's over 60 tears later.. and i don't recall coming across that material yet.
don't recall at all.

have you? anyone?

(oh, sorry! twas just heresay wasn't it, from just some 'joe blow' redneck missing all his teeth.,
my mistake, shouldn't of included it.)
« Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2011, 09:28am by grassyknoll » User IP Logged

GForce
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #53 on: Nov 4th, 2011, 1:22pm »

on Oct 31st, 2011, 10:05am, drwu23 wrote:
Just throwing in my 2 cents here but I have always been on the fence about Roswell.
I started reading John Alexander's new book and in it he tells how he met Dr Teller, the leading physicist along with Oppenheimer, working on these projects at the time and spent some time with him and they talked about Roswell. Dr Teller acted like he had not heard about it and said if an alien ship had crashed there in '47 he would have definitely been called in to examine it along with other scientist. He was not. Though Dr Teller could have been lying, Alexander, an experienced intel officer for many years, said he thought he was being genuine based on his reactions and body language in the conversation.
For this and other reasons reagarding things I have read I remain unconvinced this was a genuine alien craft that crashed. Something happened ...but alien space ship...?


Hi drwu, I think for most of those there it was alien. Alien in regards to not knowing what they were looking at. The craft may have been a top secret project, if that was the case then I don't see a reason to call in someone such as Teller. I personally have a hard time with the supposedly recovered alien bodies but who knows maybe they were chimps, maybe dummies but then again who really knows! Dan
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #54 on: Nov 4th, 2011, 7:01pm »

on Nov 4th, 2011, 1:22pm, GForce wrote:
Hi drwu, I think for most of those there it was alien. Alien in regards to not knowing what they were looking at. The craft may have been a top secret project, if that was the case then I don't see a reason to call in someone such as Teller. I personally have a hard time with the supposedly recovered alien bodies but who knows maybe they were chimps, maybe dummies but then again who really knows! Dan


Well the fact that nobody recognized it was proof enough it wasn't a balloon. With that project happening right around there, they saw those float by all the time. I'm certain they would have been able to figure out what the debris was after seeing those.

That's why that one picture was staged too. An obvious balloon, that. You already heard this though. But I've been thinking about what might have hit the ground there. Those crescent shaped vehicles Arnold saw at Mount Ranier sound like one possibility to me. They fit the description of the Horten wing, or a miniature version of the one Northrop developed. I think those might have fooled somebody into thinking it was saucer wreckage. How about yourself?
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #55 on: Nov 4th, 2011, 7:50pm »

Mylar was not invented until the early 1950's.
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #56 on: Nov 5th, 2011, 10:16am »

on Nov 4th, 2011, 7:01pm, icepick wrote:
Well the fact that nobody recognized it was proof enough it wasn't a balloon. With that project happening right around there, they saw those float by all the time. I'm certain they would have been able to figure out what the debris was after seeing those.

That's why that one picture was staged too. An obvious balloon, that. You already heard this though. But I've been thinking about what might have hit the ground there. Those crescent shaped vehicles Arnold saw at Mount Ranier sound like one possibility to me. They fit the description of the Horten wing, or a miniature version of the one Northrop developed. I think those might have fooled somebody into thinking it was saucer wreckage. How about yourself?


No idea what kind of military project it might have been but I like Alexander's take on it and the fact that Teller wasn't called in...if that's true... says not alien imo.
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #57 on: Nov 5th, 2011, 10:21am »

on Nov 4th, 2011, 1:22pm, GForce wrote:
Hi drwu, I think for most of those there it was alien. Alien in regards to not knowing what they were looking at. The craft may have been a top secret project, if that was the case then I don't see a reason to call in someone such as Teller. I personally have a hard time with the supposedly recovered alien bodies but who knows maybe they were chimps, maybe dummies but then again who really knows! Dan


Highly classified project probably...space aliens doubtful..imo.
I've been reading about the ufo enigma since 1970 and I'm pretty convinced the govt has no bodies or crashed saucers. I don't think they know that much more than us about the origin of these ufos and 'occupants'.
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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #58 on: Nov 5th, 2011, 5:54pm »

just a thought, and possibly of no relevance to roswell,

how many ufo's* have been reported that appeared to of been..
either travelling along, or acting erratically,
..that exploded in a shower of sparks, or a brilliant flash, sometimes causing a shockwave inducing boom..
(or alike, etc)?

plenty,
and that's just in OZ alone.
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*ufo's that were not following a 'standard' meteor's arced trajectory

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(obviously,have never been able to work out/know if it was a self-destruct mechanism, unintentional, or caused by some other action, or..??)

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xx Re: Roswell question.
« Reply #59 on: Nov 5th, 2011, 8:36pm »

on Nov 5th, 2011, 10:21am, drwu23 wrote:
Highly classified project probably...space aliens doubtful..imo.
I've been reading about the ufo enigma since 1970 and I'm pretty convinced the govt has no bodies or crashed saucers. I don't think they know that much more than us about the origin of these ufos and 'occupants'.


I agree drwu! There's been a number of claims of crashed and recovered alien craft with recovered bodies, not just at Roswell but elsewhere. I have a real problem with these claims. First I seriously doubt an alien craft with ET's at the helm can travel millions of miles through outer space dodging all the space junk out there only to crash on the 3rd rock from the sun. I don't think gravity is that much of a factor. So unless mankind has the ability to shoot down these advanced craft IF they exist the crashes are hard to fathom.

I'm not saying it's impossible that a craft with bodies hasn't been recoved only unlikely IMO. Dan
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