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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.M  (Read 4474 times)
aerialphenomena
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #15 on: Aug 5th, 2013, 07:08am »

As I mentioned to Chuck, the original material was tainted due to improper chain of custody procedures. There isn't a court of law or a scientific organization that will accept that material as evidence of anything. I also told Chuck that I will always re open the case if proper evidence is forwarded.

I understand, moreover, that there are some isotopes issues regarding the material, but to claim that the material is extraterrestrial in nature without having anything to compare it with **that is extraterrestrial** makes his claim speculation at best. This does not mean, however, that the material he provided is not from an alleged UFO. If you read the report - we simply stated that the beam he provided - combined with the Air Force crash reports, clearly indicated that an aircraft crash there. Additionally, we couldn't find any credible firsthand reports to prove that the crash actually happened. I follow a strict rules of evidence procedure ... so hearsay, speculation and hypnosis opens the door to reasonable doubt.

Lastly, we also learned that the analysis of the material was conducted by a paranormal ghost hunting group not licensed to conduct such analysis.

I am open to questions, but I need the community to understand that my job is to find physical proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which neither chuck or Art were able to provide.
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #16 on: Aug 5th, 2013, 07:14am »

INDEED...PROPER PROTOCOL!

SHALOM...ZETAR

EDIT TO ADD:


ONE CAVEAT I MIGHT ADD AFTER REREADING YOUR POST IS THAT...LOGICALLY THINKING...IF IT'S NOT ON THE PERIODIC TABLE OF ELEMENTS...YA GOT TO AT LEAST CONSIDER IT'S NOT FROM HERE...IN LIEU OF CHAIN OF CUSTODY...MOREOVER...IF THE BONDING OF CERTAIN ELEMENTS (SPECIFIC CONFIGURATION) PRECEDED OUR TECHNOLOGICAL CAPABILITY AT THAT TIME...DRAWING HARD AND FAST CONCLUSIONS SUCH IS **TERRESTRIAL** MIGHT BE PREMATURE...IMHO...
I WOULD FURTHER.BE INTERESTED IN YOUR ALLUDING TO A QUESTION OF ...ISOTOPE(S)...WHEREIN IF...RADIOACTIVE MAY BE AN ESSENTIAL KEY TO ORIGIN/LOCALE...
« Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2013, 08:43am by ZETAR » User IP Logged

GREAT SPIRITS ALWAYS ENCOUNTER THE MOST VIOLENT OPPOSITION FROM MEDIOCRE MINDS E=MC2
meteorlima
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #17 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 12:11am »

I suggest reading the August 2013 MUFON Journal and read "Letters to the Editor" the one written by Donald R. Burleson,Ph.D. New Mexico State Director of MUFON who questions the research Antonio Paris conducted on the crash on the Plains of San Augustine.
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2013, 12:23am by meteorlima » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #18 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 01:12am »

Hi, would you mind linking the article comment please?
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2013, 01:15am by Equalizer » User IP Logged

aerialphenomena
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #19 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 03:30am »

Meteorlima

i read the article on this month's journal. I agree with him a bit but note that Donald, PhD or not, still has no physical proof beyond a "reasonable doubt". you keep forgetting that the metal found was passed around improperly for years before it was sent to a "ghost hunting" team to analyze the metal. give me a break. also note that Donald and Chuck are both from New Mexico and are also friends - so it is clear that there is an agenda behind the comment.

This is a good case ... but Chuck and Art are not UFO investigators and are certainly not trained to handle evidence properly. Moreover, you keep forgetting one major thing: we positively identified an aircraft. Not sure why you keep ignoring that fact.

In the end, perhaps a UFO did crash there. But there is no evidence to back that claim. I am open to revisiting the site to look for further evidence, that is what an investigator does.

Some are beginning to entertain that perhaps both a UFO and plane crashed there ... but I don't work for Hollywood. LOL
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #20 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 09:35am »

I don't have a dog in the San Agustin hunt one way or the other, but I would like to summarize what took place in this thread because, in my opinion, it epitomizes potential areas for improvement in ufology.

While browsing the API website, I came across the San Agustin report. Finding it informative and interesting from several perspectives, I tweeted the link and decided to post it here on Casebook as well. A quick glance through the section of the forum designated for crashes revealed this thread, so this is where I posted a link to the API report.

Meteorlima then chose to call the report tripe and state that API founder and director Antonio Paris had been removed from his position at MUFON. Meteorlima offered no specific points of contention about the API report, nor did meteorlima offer specific sources or documentation for the statement even when specifically requested to do so. He did, however, eventually suggest we read a letter in the MUFON Journal which, I gather, supports the possibility of a crash of an alien vehicle in San Agustin in 1947.

In the mean time, aerialphenomena joined the discussion. Nonetheless and in spite of his accessibility, neither specific rebuttals to the API report nor specific disagreements about it have been presented.

My point is that if reports and perspectives are challenged, it would be infinitely more constructive if they were specifically challenged; specific, particular points contained in any given work could be addressed and debated. The prevailing lack of such rational discussion and debate, while protecting sacred cows at sometimes all cost of logic and reason, is among the primary challenges currently facing ufology.

JB
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2013, 10:00am by jjflash » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #21 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 09:36am »

HEY AP... (TONI IF I MAY),

HOLLYWOOD...I LOVE A WRY SENSE OF HUMOR...
YOUR CHAIN OF CUSTODY POINT IS QUITE IMPORTANT...ESPECIALLY IN A COURT OF LAW...NOT MAINTAINED PROPERLY...JUST THE GLITCH A DEFENSE ATTORNEY NEEDS FOR HIS/HER CLIENT.
YES....MANY TIMES I'VE KEYED OUT SPECIMENS WHEREIN THE GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION...LAT/LON...GPS/GRID...IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE...AND...AS YOU SAY ...CHAIN OF CUSTODY WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO **ATTRIBUTE/CONNECT** THIS BEAM TO A 1947 CRASH SITE...INDEED...
HAVING SAID THAT...IN THE COURT OF REASONABLE DISCOVERY...WHEREIN A VAST PERCENTAGE OF ITEMS FOUND ARE DONE BY GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS THEN ONE STUMBLES UPON SOMETHING...
HAVING THE/AN ARTIFACT IN HAND IS OFTEN MORE IMPORTANT THAN IT'S (P.O.O.) POINT OF ORIGIN...IF SUCH CAN ONLY BE A GUESSTIMATION...
THE METALLURGICAL ANALYSIS...COMPONENT COMPOUNDS...BONDING STRUCTURE WOULD BE QUITE IMPORTANT TO DETERMINE IT'S ORIGIN...WHETHER TERRESTRIAL OR NOT...SUCH WOULD TAMP DOWN THE TALK OR IN TURN FUEL THE FIRE.
I CAN'T IMAGINE THE UNDERBELLY (WHICH IS SAID IN A COMPLEMENTARY TONE) OF THE AIR FORCE NOT SANITIZING SUCH A PURPORTED SITE...MOREOVER...SEEDING SITE WITH AN A-10...BE IT WHAT EVER... TO GET THE DOGS OFF THE SCENT SO-TO-SPEAK....WOULD'VE BEEN PART OF THE UPPER ECHELON DECISION MAKING **PROTOCOL**...IMHO...
WHETHER THE BEAM CAME FROM THIS SITE OR NOT...THE POTENTIAL OF IT'S IMPORTANCE IS QUITE OBVIOUS FOR THOSE CURIOUS AND QUASI COMMITED TO THIS UFOLOGICAL ENDEAVOR...
YOUR PROCEDURES ARE CORRECT...YOUR EXPERIENCE IS NOTEWORTHY...AND...YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR...CLASSIC...
YES...THE TWISTS AND TURNS OF ANY INVESTIGATIONS TAKES THE MUNDANE OUT OF LIFE AND ...WELL...MAKES IT INTERESTING...

I KNOW YOU'RE THINKING...WHY IS THIS GUY "CAPS LOCK CENTRAL"...
I HAVE A DEGENERATIVE EYE DISEASE AND THIS AIDS ME TREMENDOUSLY...AND...WELL...AN OCCASIONAL SENSE OF HUMOR...

SHALOM...ZETAR
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2013, 09:44am by ZETAR » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #22 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 09:57am »

HEY JJ,

I KINDA LIKE HOW YOU PUT THAT...CARRY ON MY FRIEND!!!
NOW WE MUST KEEP IN MIND OUR CIVILTY AND RESPECT OF/FOR ONES OPINION/CONTRIBUTION...WHETHER...WHETHER INCOMPLETE OR WITH A LACK OF RETORT...C'EST LA VIE...

SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #23 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 2:25pm »

on Aug 6th, 2013, 03:30am, aerialphenomena wrote:
This is a good case ... but Chuck and Art are not UFO investigators and are certainly not trained to handle evidence properly.



Hi Tony and welcome! Sadly that is a problem with most want to be ufologists. It's also something that could lead to different types of exposures that could kill someone. From radiation to chemical, the list is long. Dan
« Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2013, 2:26pm by GForce » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #24 on: Aug 6th, 2013, 9:43pm »

UFOlogists aren't the only ones with little training as we know. Archeologists, metal detectorists, and prospectors are also in a position to encounter dangerous items as they follow their hobbies.
It's too bad that some of the better known speakers and writers don't at least suggest that people make themselves familiar with basic evidence handling, and hazard recognition.
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #25 on: Aug 7th, 2013, 12:09pm »

Kudos to the Aerial Phenomena Investigations team for conducting an actual investigation. Too many so-called "investigators" never do the necessary legwork. I agree with most of the API team's investigative conclusions, except that I don't believe that the mystery debris has been positively identified as having come from an AT-6C.

Contacting the Aviation Archaeological Investigations and Research Group was an excellent start. I fully agree with Trey Brandt's assessment that the I-beam was a conventional aircraft component. That was fairly obvious just from the photos. I have seen similar I-beams in aircraft structures of all types ranging from zeppelins to space shuttles. Without a part number, however, there is no way to conclusively state that this particular I-beam came from an AT-6C. The drawing in the maintenance manual is not sufficient to make a positive identification.

The triangular marking looks like an inspection stamp but I have been unable to find an identical match, so far. It is not a known stamp associated with North American Aviation, the manufacturer of the AT-6C. I also do not believe it has any relation to NAS-type fasteners. Such markings are not used on aircraft structure to indicate placement of bolts, etc.

Some of the other debris reportedly excavated at the Horse Springs site included sheet aluminum and aluminum with a dark greenish-brown coating. This also sounds entirely conventional. Zinc chromate coatings ranging from yellowish-green to greenish-brown are used to protect aluminum aircraft structure from oxidation and corrosion. Photos of the debris on Art Campbell's web site show material that looks much like aircraft debris that I have seen at numerous crash sites around the southwestern U.S.

One of the most important questions is whether the location where the mystery debris was recovered matches the reported location of the AT-6C crash site. In most cases, simply confirming the location of a crash site is enough to state with some assurance that debris found at that site comes from the aircraft in question. This is not always the case, however. I once found fragments of a B-24 (circa 1940s) mixed with parts from an F-100 (1950s) and F-104 (1960s) where debris fields from three separate crash sites overlapped.

Location is not the only tool for identifying crash debris. Materials and construction methods vary from aircraft to aircraft. Paints and coatings provide clues. The most important indicators are part numbers, manufacturer's inspection stamps, and components that can be identified in photos, technical manuals, blueprints, or on intact aircraft (such as museum displays).

There may indeed be other crash sites in the Horse Springs area. Campbell's site has photos showing fragments of aluminum honeycomb sandwich material. I don't believe that this type of construction was used on the AT-6C, though I could be mistaken. I have seen similar material used on all sorts of aircraft and related items including fighters, bombers, tow-targets, missiles, and in recoverable capsules from high-altitude research balloons. Several such balloon capsules came down on the Plains of San Agustin during the early 1950s.

Over the past three decades I have visited more than 100 crash sites of civilian and military aircraft, rockets, missiles, aerospace vehicles, and associated items dating from 1943 to 2011. Many of these were experimental aircraft that represented the cutting edge of technology for their respective times. Several of them were "black" projects from Area 51 that have since been declassified. Others were operational production models. Additionally, I have studied disassembled and intact airframes of various types in order to build my knowledge base. My experience has afforded me the opportunity to examine a wide range of materials and manufacturing techniques, and to study crash effects resulting from impact forces and fire. I have also had unprecedented access to hardware and technical documentation. Two things most surprised me during my investigations.

The first was how strikingly similar the classic UFO crash recovery stories were to accounts of actual "black" project crash recoveries. The basic narrative was essentially the same: an unknown object crashed in a rural area close to a small population center (town, ranching community, etc.), the crash site was quickly secured by government/military forces, civilian witnesses were intimidated, and the government cleaned up every trace.

The second thing I discovered was that the government never cleans up every trace. There is always something left behind no matter how much time, money, and manpower was expended on the recovery and cleanup effort.

I believe that validated accounts of government crash recovery efforts involving secret aircraft serve as excellent case studies for evaluating UFO crash recovery stories. A collection of such case studies represents baseline data on how the government actually responds to crashes requiring heightened security levels, what sort of cleanup methods have been used historically, and what an investigator might expect to find at the crash site weeks, months, years, or even decades after the incident. This database would serve as a toolbox for investigators, and would be equally useful to believers and skeptics alike.
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xx Re: Finding the 1947 UFO Crash at San Augustine,N.
« Reply #26 on: Aug 22nd, 2013, 1:12pm »

Chuck Wade discusses debris found on the Plains of San Augustine NOT ROSWELL as the title of this video suggests. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qpfvN-4QGg
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