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MGrandin
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1080 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:47am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 07:29am, chemicaldave wrote:
I may not be a photo analysis expert, but I am as much as an "expert" on how a UFO might work as anyone. I find it absurd that there is so much speculation about how this or that part of it might generate fields, antigravity effects, etc. Between 1966-68 I worked for a classified nuclear weapons subcontractor and had a Q security clearance. I can tell you that no one in my division could get access to documents in another division without a need to know. The idea that "Isaac" could simply photocopy the most sensitive classified documents in history, and walk out with them is just nonsense.

I also continue to maintain that no one could take an alien artifact from a technology probably thousands of years ahead of ours and decipher what it was to the extent that they could say it was "a personal antigravity device" or that the graphics were some kind of inherent computer function. I personally know the person who reverse-engineered the first Intel chip for AMD, and he did it by grinding the chip down layer by layer and doing serial reconstruction. But, he knew the materials in chip, and what it was supposed to do. We don't know that about any alien technology.

Dave



As I understand, also some information from aliens is
involved in this. You get impression also aliens are dwelling behind this reverse-engineering. Perhaps
UFO-pilots who have survived crash cooperated
to some degree. But as "just" pilots they may have known rather little about the technology behind - although having superficial knowledge.

"Isaac" (if this is true) must be careful not revealing himself (if he is not dying or by other reason isn't very afraid of getting caught), why exact circumstances may be other than he told, although his message in essence
may be true. As already suggested by other posters.

Personally I found it strange there were crowds of heavily armed guards watching the poor experts at work
- not a good climate for advanced thinking.

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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1081 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:48am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:39am, castles4me wrote:
Which is exactly why I don't agree with BJ posting the "Critique of the Drone photo" in the main section of the site today.... it only lists Dave's "opinion" based on the photo he received.

If we post Dave's opinion, then there should be Onthefence's determination of "what he did" that explains the anomolies posted with it.

It just seems so authoritative coming from BJ posting it as the one and final answer to the photo question.... which I don't believe it is.


No, it's very common for BJ to do that because everyone is entitled to their opinion. BJ makes a point of posting his emails he gets from people that are not part of the forum. Here's a couple others that he put on his website over the past few weeks.

Unfortunately, my words up above in the post on Dave aren't going to matter much since now BJ is going to be getting email telling him that it was due to jpg compression. Then BJ will have to post those.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/unmannedprobeanalysis.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/strangecraftcomments.html

« Last Edit: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:51am by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1082 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:51am »

Are any specifics known regarding the actual location of the two June 5th sightings. Such as, the name of the trails Ty was mountain biking on and where Stephen was hiking/taking wildlife photos? I don't know if I miss this piece of info, their emails stated general locations. I would like specifics if possible.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1083 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:52am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:27am, onthefence55 wrote:
The original print is in the hands of LMH, nobody has been allowed to see it except her and the original photographer. It is very likely that she may keep that forever and never release it for serious analysis.


I'm thinking Linda might mention this photo on Friday night, during her Coast to Coast AM spot. She has submitted photos for expert analysis in the past, but she only does so with trusted sources. Whether or not others will trust her sources is a different matter.

I'm going to send her an e-mail and suggest that she does have it analyzed. I'll report back if I get a response.

Linda understands the importance of breaking news in the context of a more mainstream program like Coast to Coast AM. I'm sure we'll be hoisted by several petards during the course of Friday's program... I'm anxious to see what's in store.


« Last Edit: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:55am by OnlookerDelay » User IP Logged

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Mmm, yes, very curious, very interesting....


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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA-More from Dave
« Reply #1084 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:52am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:06am, onthefence55 wrote:
Did you not see my post here a while ago? Please confirm that you read this one then.

This is a re-do of that same post but this time for OMF:

A quick search of the intarweb produced the following three images with white overcast skies. I performed a simple threshold at max test to show that the entire background sky is actually saturated at max (255).

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Automatic cameras perform an automatic exposure function which tries very hard to get an even amount of brightness onto the film/ccd. In situations where photographing a subject against a bright background, a silhouette may be created. This is because the dynamic range of the film or CCD is not wide enough to capture the small nuances of the bright background and the dark subject.

LMH's web/computer help has tweaked both photographs "for more detail" as has been mentioned already by her. Color and contrast modifications are inevitable.


I did read that... can you post a photo where the camera will set the background ... even small gaps through the trees... for the entire field of view, to 255, with no pixel variation? I would love to see it.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1085 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:00am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:48am, Atrueoriginall wrote:
No, it's very common for BJ to do that because everyone is entitled to their opinion. BJ makes a point of posting his emails he gets from people that are not part of the forum.


BJ might want to rethink that policy. When the link to Daves "post" opens it appears to be an authoritative article and that's where the problem lies. If I were new to Casebook and clicked on that analysis I would see it as more definitive than it actually is. In fact as a novice I would likely stop reading as soon as I saw it pronounced as fake. I would also think that this view was endorsed by Casebook. With all of the new interest in this, we shouldn't assume that everyone starts from an aware position in terms of articles vs. posts.

Speaking of articles, does anyone have any more info on this one:

http://www.ufocasebook.com/100starcraft.html
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1086 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:18am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:39am, Atrueoriginall wrote:
We are still trying to figure out something about this photo here in regard to how, where and when LMH got it. Do you think it's been removed from her sight or can you remember what else was in the article where she posted it and I can go do a hunt and peck.


She did put that hi-res fin on here site.

After she moved almost all the drone material to "pay-to-view" I stopped digging around there. I did not keep the report, maybe someone on OMF posted it there. Or maybe someone with a subscription to her site can dig that up.

Earthfiles is clearly not about open scientific investigation. My and many others requests to her have been ignored. Her site now requires payment to view details of one of the most detailed UFO pictures ever seen. I do appreciate that she did release some of the information, without her -- who knows, maybe we'd have nothing, or maybe we'd have someone else that would be more openly co-operative. If Ty or Stephen or Chad or Raj had initially posted their findings here or on OMF, then the whole story might have been different. Instead the two mainstream UFO "media" outlets (C2C and LMH) were contacted.

These forums, although the best source of up-to-date information, are like the TARDIS; to the rest of the world they seem tiny and insignificant, but once inside -- they are a whole universe on their own.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA-More from Dave
« Reply #1087 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:24am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 07:56am, Atrueoriginall wrote:
That's not completely true bakosawa. Mufon hired two CGI people who only commented on the Chad drone. Just the same, since then other CGI people have said the contrary. Ufologist aren't going to fall on just the words of Mufon certainly and assume that all of the drones and Isaac are a hoax just because two individuals said that Chad's photos were.

I see it more of a extremely involved situation that Ufology doesn't have the time to involve themselves with. They all have regular jobs that consume the larger part of their day so like anyone else, it's hard to play catch up.

I'm not making excuses for them certainly because I think they've missed the boat since there was still enough time to consider at least one of them.

Just by you making that statement above, if someone were to come in here for the first time and click on the end page here what would they know. That's what disinformation is.
.


I was surfing the web... on Dogpile, key words MUFON DRONE... everything that pops up states MUFON states the drones are a hoax. If there are linked to MUFON that retract that... please post. I am not trying to push disinformation, just what I observe. I will be more than happy to say that what was posted was incorrect.

But I also recall stating "As I have said before… I am not ready to throw out the baby with the bath water yet. If one of the photos is real… then it would be wrong to throw all of the photos out as a hoax." So why am I pushing disinformation… why aren’t just disagreeing on some things?

Did I also miss the release of other Ty high res photos (other than the one)? I have seen two now. It is very difficult to keep up with the thread if you miss a few days.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1088 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:27am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 07:29am, chemicaldave wrote:
I also continue to maintain that no one could take an alien artifact from a technology probably thousands of years ahead of ours and decipher what it was to the extent that they could say it was "a personal antigravity device" or that the graphics were some kind of inherent computer function.


If you were an alien race and were anticipating putting some type of monitoring drone in earth's atmosphere, near ground level, would you put your current day technology out there or would you dig up something very old and antiquated (a little closer to our technology) and use it instead?

Maybe we don't understand the technology that Isaac mentions quite yet, but the idea that it can be understood is there. The time it will take to do so may be many, many years ahead of us but could the possibility be that it was purposely given to us to do so someday? Considering that it could take 500 + additional years because we don't have the artifacts tells me that the timeframe has simply been reduced and possibly intentional.

If any of these drones end up being factual, I would have to think that we were given such technology (internal components in particular) purposely.

Aren't we stalled with antigravity? Sure we are. But if it exists (for the aliens), and we're advanced enough to figure it out with a little push, don't you think that they would have given us that little push in the right direction? I do.

The aliens already see where we're at in respect to space flight for such a young civilization. They also know how far we've advanced in such a very short timeframe. I can actually visualize them standing off and conversing about giving earth a little push in the direction of longer distance space missions a little sooner then we could have done ourself. Probably not in our lifetime but not that awful far away either.

Just the same, if Isaac is factual, those are the keys and our own government knows this and is sitting on them somewhere.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA-More from Dave
« Reply #1089 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:32am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 08:52am, bakosawa wrote:
I did read that... can you post a photo where the camera will set the background ... even small gaps through the trees... for the entire field of view, to 255, with no pixel variation? I would love to see it.


Those pictures of the bird and sky are real photos that you can find for yourself on Google images. I did not touch those images. I only provided a thresholded copy below (in black and white) to indicate max (255). Every pixel that is white in that threshold test has a value of 255, and every pixel that is black in that threshold test has a value between 0-254.

The camera set those pixel levels for color pictures.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1090 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:34am »

Quote:
We are still trying to figure out something about this photo here in regard to how, where and when LMH got it. Do you think it's been removed from her sight or can you remember what else was in the article where she posted it and I can go do a hunt and peck.


on Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:18am, onthefence55 wrote:
She did put that hi-res fin on here site.


Here is a published email from LMH with a time line.

========================
From: Linda Moulton Howe <earthfiles@earthfiles.com>
To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 14:52:11 -0600
Subject: MUFON Investigation Shows Drone Photos Hoaxed


Hi, Errol:

Understand you have posted an e-mail from Steve Murillo, MUFON-
LA, provided to you by Bill Hamilton, in which Mr. Murillo
describes his investigation of the dragonfly-shaped drone
photographs and his conclusion the photos are hoaxed. Am not
certain what the MUFON definition of an investigation is, but
know it did not include communications with the eyewitnesses
below. In fairness, would appreciate your distribution of this
information as well.

-----

Background by Linda Moulton Howe, Reporter and Editor,
Earthfiles.com:

The first still images of the dragonfly-shaped "drones" in 2007
were dated May 5, from Lake Tahoe, and May 6, from the
Bakersfield, California region. Those images were first sent by
the alleged respective photographers to UFOcasebook.com and to
Lex, webmaster of the Coast to Coast AM website. Lex and I
talked about the images and he put me in touch with Chad, the
Bakersfield photographer. Subsequently, eyewitnesses to such a
dragonfly-shaped aerial "drone" have included one as far back as
1987 in a hangar at Barksdale AFB, Louisiana.

Web-distributed CGI demonstrations were made AFTER the first May
5 and May 6 dragonfly "drone" images appeared from Lake Tahoe
and the Bakersfield region, using the Chad images.

For reference, here is a list of eyewitnesses over a 20-year-
long time line from 1987 to 2007 (regardless of the
CGI/Photoshop/viral video arguments).

1) Earthfiles 05/30/2007 -
Birmingham-Type "Drone" Seen At Barksdale AFB, Louisiana, in
Mid-1980s 1987, Barksdale AFB, Louisiana: Eyewitness on air
show tour who saw craft in hangar very similar to Birmingham,
Alabama, dragonfly-shaped drone photographed in May 2006 by
"John Smith." Have talked at length by phone and have had much
email correspondence with Barksdale AFB eyewitness engineer who
does not want to jeopardize his career, but wants the public and
me to know what he saw. I have his full name, address, phone
number and professional background.

2) Earthfiles 05/25/2007 -
Two More Eyewitnesses of Aerial "Drones" in 2005 and 2006
Birmingham, Alabama, May 2006: "John Smith" is a subcontractor
for military and cannot jeoparize his career, either. But he and
I have corresponded by email frequently to date. The "drone"
photograph John Smith sent to me from May 2006, while he was
doing work at a Birmingham, Alabama, construction site, was
recognized by October 1995, Arizona hiker/camper, as similar to
silent aerial object that moved slowly over his camp site. I
have his full name, address and phone number.

3) Earthfiles 06/22/2007 - Dragonfly "Drone" Seen October 1995
in Arizona North of Tucson, near Heber, Arizona, October 1995:
Dragonfly-shaped "drone" came down within 20 feet of hiker's
head who talked to me last week about the encounter, how scared
he was, but did not want the government coming down on his head
if it was a secret government project no one was supposed to
know about. He had a bad experience a decade earlier in the
1980s concerning a black military project and was threatened.
But because I have been reporting eyewitnesses on the record,
with or without, real names and locations, he agreed to talk
with me because he wants to know what the dragonfly-shaped
"drone" is as well. I have his full name, address, phone number,
where he works and professional background.

4) Earthfiles 05/25/2007 -
Two More Eyewitnesses of Aerial "Drones" in 2005 and 2006
Sequoia National Park, May 2005: Shirley P., retired California
state mental health worker. She wants to apply for another state
job and does not want any of the "drone" controversy to
negatively affect her current application. But she became very
upset when all the CGI and Photoshop arguments were being made
and she knew she had seen with her own eyes, while standing next
to a Sequoia Park Ranger while asking for driving instructions
out of the park, a strange aerial object that matched the Chad
images of May 6, 2007. Shirley saw the same drone a second time
when she stopped to get further driving instructions from a road
crew. She did not have a camera with her either time. I have her
full name, address, phone, and professional background.

5) Earthfiles 06/08/2007 -
More Drone Photos and Other Eyewitnesses Northridge, California,
near big shopping mall, May 17, 2006: Robert Mariotti, C. Ht.
D. D., Clinical Hypnotherapist and Doctor of Divinity, Canoga
Park, California: Spoke with me on the record with name,
profession, location about his sighting around 10 PM of a
"horseshoe crab in profile" glowing apple-green fluorescence
that sparkled like snow globe glitter. The aerial object just
"popped in" to view, not traveling from anywhere. When Robert
Mariotti saw my Earthfiles reports, he contacted me by email and
phone to say the ring with the "wires curving up above" and the
long tail was also the shape of the object inside the sparkling
glitter, motionless about ten feet above a tree at the Corbin
Avenue intersection near the Northridge Mall. Another driver
next to Robert also saw the object, which after several seconds
moved forward about five feet, he estimated, and then simply
"popped out," disappeared.

6) Earthfiles 06/08/2007 -
More Drone Photos and Other Eyewitnesses
Yosemite National Park, June 10, 2006: Mother and her two sons
camping saw dragonfly-shaped "drone" for several minutes and the
boys shone their flashlights on it which caused the "drone" to
stop mid-air without sound or any perceivable motion. When it
moved again, it jerkily went in another direction and repeated
that odd behavior several times in response to the light from
the flashlights shining on it. The mother sketched the aerial
object which had an "arm" coming down from the ring that
anticipated the evolving Big Basin images of June 2007. She has
corresponded with me by email.

7) Earthfiles 05/16/2007 -
Updated: Odd Aerial "Drones"? Over Lake Tahoe and Central
California Lake Tahoe, May 5, 2007: MUFON Submitter 7013, two
photographs of simpler version of the dragonfly-shaped "drone."
Have had no independent communication with alleged photographer.

8) Earthfiles 05/16/2007 -
Updated: Odd Aerial "Drones"? Over Lake Tahoe and Central
California
Bakersfield, California, general region, May 6, 2007: Chad took
several clear, digital camera images of a dragonfly-shaped
"drone" version more complicated than the Lake Tahoe images. I
have corresponded several times with Chad, know his full name
and might be talking with him in person in the future.

9) Earthfiles 05/21/2007 -
Updated: Odd Aerial "Drone"? Photographed Again Over Capitola,
California
Capitola, California, east of Santa Cruz on Monterey Bay:
"Rajman 1977" used his Konica Minolta DiMAGE X to photograph a
dragonfly-shaped "drone" above a power pole that looks similar
to the Chad photos, except the Capitola "drone" has two box-like
appendages on the ring. I know his full name and have
corresponded with him in email several times and hope to talk
with him in the future on the record, whether he allows his real
name to be used. This eyewitness, like most of the others, are
angered by or scared of potential ridicule in the wake of all
the CGI/Photoshop hoax attacks.

10) Earthfiles 06/08/2007 -
More Drone Photos and Other Eyewitnesses
Big Basin Redwoods State Park, California, June 5, 2007: More
complicated and more sinister-looking version of the dragonfly-
shaped "drone" allegedly photographed by "Stephen" and submitted
to UFOcasebook.com via female intermediary. I have not had
independent communication with either.

11) Earthfiles 06/17/2007 -
More Big Basin, California, Bizarre "Drone" Images
Big Basin Redwoods State Park, California, June 5, 2007:
Another eyewitness bicycling in a group, Ty B., emailed me on
June 11, about his June 5th encounter three times with the same
dragonfly-shaped "drone" as in the "Stephen" images. Ty B. hard
mailed to me 12 photograph prints of the object he said kept
turning slowly in the air not too far above where he and his
cycling buddies stopped to watch and he photographed. He is
willing to be interviewed and is currently trying to get some of
his colleagues to join him in an interview.

12) Earthfiles 06/28/2007 -
Another "Drone" This Week Near Maxwell AFB
Montgomery, Alabama, 6 miles from Maxwell AFB, a professional
security technician working with 32 infrared cameras at 5:45 AM
encounters a Chad-like drone outside - completely silent, not
moving for several minutes. When it did move, it appeared
suddenly to look like a double exposure in the sky before moving
slowly at about 2 mph to the west toward Maxwell AFB. Have his
full name, address, phone numbers and professional background.


Thank you,


Linda Moulton Howe
Reporter and Editor
www.Earthfiles.com
and Investigative Reporter
Premiere Radio Networks;
Dreamland Online

P. O. Box 21843
Albuquerque, New Mexico 87154

TEL: 505-797-7727
FAX: 505-797-7908

e-mail: earthfiles@earthfiles.com

=======

Does this help?
DarkSky
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA-More from Dave
« Reply #1091 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:39am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:24am, bakosawa wrote:
Did I also miss the release of other Ty high res photos (other than the one)? I have seen two now. It is very difficult to keep up with the thread if you miss a few days.

Only one full hi-res photo was released by LMH.

Feel free to email her and ask for the rest.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1092 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:44am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:18am, onthefence55 wrote:
Her site now requires payment to view details of one of the most detailed UFO pictures ever seen.

Yeah, that is what's hanging me up too. I check OMF but it's so here, there and everywhere - that's too much work also. So I quit trying.

Quote:
If Ty or Stephen or Chad or Raj had initially posted their findings here or on OMF, then the whole story might have been different.


Absolutely! Why do these people with findings such as those automatically think website instead of forum anyway? When you send something to a website, only one individual is deciding whether they should run it or not. If a forum gets it, it would be picked up by the members and sent out to all of the people they know who would handle it accordingly.

It's funny but Coast to Coast is the very last place I would ever send anything. They're just a news service. George Noory makes the difference on the air as did Art Bell but still, they're just a news service. They don't research anything beyond what they're handed.

Quote:
These forums, although the best source of up-to-date information, are like the TARDIS; to the rest of the world they seem tiny and insignificant, but once inside --they are a whole universe on their own.


The sad thing is, you're right. The answers are in the forum, not in the articles coming out of the websites. They only have the basics in there and we've got the bulk. Some of it is worthless certainly but the articles could never compare to the discovery in the forums.

Just the same, the websites talk to one another about what they have on such and such and that conversation sounds something like, "well the last drone we got I posted in an article on such and such date". No mention that hundreds of individuals have been posting their brains out over the subject. lol

That's why BJ ran this thread itself as the article.

Since all websites check what the other websites do on a daily basis, do you think that the ufologists stayed in and looked around when they discovered that they were entering the forum or do you think they clicked out?

That's not a question, I'm being facetious. We know the answer already.
.
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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1093 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:48am »

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Quote:
Maybe some hard-core graphics experts can tell me what I did, but it looks like the strange object has rectangular blocks of pixels around it that are unlike a normal picture taken of the sky. I think you don't see it in the normal image because white getting whiter isn't as evident as a slight shade of light grey getting lighter.

Dave


Dave, I'm not a hard-core graphics expert, but I know what just doesn't smell right to me!

The suposed highres image you used, is only 39.23 KB (40175 bytes) large!!! 800 X 429 px

If you look closer at my image, you can see some JPEG artifacts in the top left corner, do you recognise them?

The real high-res picture (scan) is 2335.75 KB (2391804 bytes) large! 4309 X 2309 px

You can download it here:
http://ovnis-usa.com/images/DroneBigBasin1Ty1200_large.jpg
« Last Edit: Jul 23rd, 2007, 10:42am by RoH » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #3 THE DRONE ENIGMA- A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE T
« Reply #1094 on: Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:48am »

on Jul 23rd, 2007, 09:00am, MarkM wrote:
BJ might want to rethink that policy. When the link to Daves "post" opens it appears to be an authoritative article and that's where the problem lies. If I were new to Casebook and clicked on that analysis I would see it as more definitive than it actually is. In fact as a novice I would likely stop reading as soon as I saw it pronounced as fake. I would also think that this view was endorsed by Casebook. With all of the new interest in this, we shouldn't assume that everyone starts from an aware position in terms of articles vs. posts.

Speaking of articles, does anyone have any more info on this one:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/100starcraft.html


BJ did not know the findings from Daves photo versus what OnTheFence posted. I certainly never knew that BJ had plans to run Dave's email. Dave probably doesn't even know that his email is running.
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