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Latitude
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #315 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 11:35am »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 10:28am, DrDil wrote:
Over the last three or four days I’ve re-read most of the Drone threads and it appears that in this thread (Drone pt5) there is almost nothing but pro-Drone comments, beliefs and theories!! rolleyes Not that there’s anything wrong with this per se, I just don’t feel it’s a true representation of the general consensus of the forum as there are also quite a few people on the fence.

This my favorite forum because it is the friendliest to me and my stance. I sometimes lurk at ATS but I always am glad I'm banned because if I wasn't I would get myself banned. Ats is made up almost entirely of @$$holes. They are brain dead idiots and jackasses. ATS has a small minority of decent thinkers. I feel sorry for them. But everybody who wants to participate should find their most comfortable forum. For some that may be ATS. So in a way I am thankful for ATS. If it wasn't for them the jackasses might be here.

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And as nearly all pro-Drone comments are going unchallenged, I’ll attempt to slightly redress the balance (purely to at least give the illusion of fairness and equality. grin)


Reverse psychology perhaps?

What better way to orchestrate a successful hoax than to do things that have never before been seen as firstly there’s no real comparison with anything (other that the Isaac documents/scans/drawings/CGI or whatever they may be) and secondly the more outlandish (or alien for want of a better word) the details are when viewed can surely only be a good thing for the hoaxers? If for no other reason than to prompt people to say,

“Why would they attach parts to their model that don't have an obvious function”

Which leads me to ask which parts do you suggest have an obvious function and what is that function? Purely to use as a frame of reference to discern which parts don’t have this functionality. wink


I almost posted this myself. I actually typed in my reply to ATO that the debunkers would say "the hooks are put there to make the object more believable". I then erased that part thinking it was not my place as a believer to post it.

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Isn't that playing straight into the hoaxers hands?
I remember you also wrote:


Surely there is a slight hypocrisy here? Dismissing something because it’s, “Too good to be true” is equally as, “Bogus” as dismissing something because you think it’s, “Way too obvious?”

We are having a misunderstanding on this point. The photo quality is what is too good to be true. You cut the "way too obvious" out of context and changed the meaning I intended. I meant that I was being way too obvious when I was stating that a hoaxer would likely not design his drones in this manner because the design only causes people to not believe them. That would be counter to what a hoaxer would be trying to accomplish. I hope you understand this point because I feel it is very important. It's one of the first ideas that popped into my mind when I first viewed the Chad photos back in early May.

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It wasn’t that long ago everyone wanted experts involved, and a couple obliged, but if occasionally an expert hints at a scenario that doesn’t appeal, then all of a sudden it’s a case of:

I'm very grateful for what 11Aug and the others did in bringing in experts. I only wanted others to see their conclusions (or lack of conclusion) for what they are.

Quote:
Evidently as rare as it is to get a pro-drone advocate to accept any other viable or plausible possibility of origin. It really does seem as if any fact can be turned to either sides advantage when it’s necessary. For example you (Lat) also said:

“Be very careful when you start getting skeptical about the way in which you believe an alien device should be designed. We have no idea about the limitations of the technology. Is was most evident when the BB drone was accused of being a hoax because it was claimed it could in no way support it's own appendages with the tiny connecting pieces. It was thought by the narrow minded that centrifugal and inertial forces would break the thing apart. Then came the Isaac info which explained that the object used RSR (Rigid Spatial Relationship) that was responsible for it's form and rigidity.
It also was revealed that it was immune to environment and inertia.”


Yet a couple of comments back:


“Object used RSR (Rigid Spatial Relationship) that was responsible for it's form and rigidity. It also was revealed that it was immune to environment and inertia.”

So obviously why then the need for the very, “Human” method of being highly configurable with the use of hooks? Especially since the RSR can hold them in place without the use of even hinges and brackets.


I don't know the answer to that. I might guess that the drone parts may require physical contact. The hooks don't look like they do much else. They don't look like they secure the connection. It appears to be only a physical contact. I find the lack of brackets at that point odd enough. Maybe Isaac knows the answer to that.

My main point on this is that we should not attempt to prove real or fake based on questions like these because we don't understand the technology and probably never will.
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2007, 11:40am by Latitude » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #316 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 11:59am »

If your quote was taken out of context I apologise. undecided

on Sep 8th, 2007, 11:35am, Latitude wrote:
A hoaxer would likely not design his drones in this manner because the design only causes people to not believe them. That would be counter to what a hoaxer would be trying to accomplish. I hope you understand this point.

I think I do, I mentioned reverse psychology earlier in the same post, I’m sure it’s not impossible that this was a pre-emptive strike by the hoaxer, or simpler still, they may have even got carried away with adding extra bits and pieces, or seeing exactly how far the boundaries of belief could be pushed.

on Sep 8th, 2007, 11:35am, Latitude wrote:
My main point on this is that we should not attempt to prove real or fake based on questions like these because we don't understand the technology and probably never will.

That was my main point as well, that was why I tried to highlight this using your earlier quote about the RSR and your current quote about the hooks. If I’m perfectly honest and failing the release of any further information I fear this will never be proved real or fake, not to the point of collective acceptance anyway.
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #317 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 12:08pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 10:56am, newtothis wrote:
I believe that RSR was only in effect with the A1 generator. I don't see the A1 on any of the craft, though... Maybe the craft have a different type of generator, or maybe a completely different propulsion system altogether?

Hi NewToThis, I was actually paraphrasing Latitudes quotes to highlight an earlier hypothesis, and Latitude was in turn paraphrasing the Isaac documentation.

The full sentence was, “Then came the Isaac info which explained that the object used RSR (Rigid Spatial Relationship) that was responsible for it's form and rigidity.” That’s why by using his earlier hypothesis I thought it would negate his assumption of the Drone being, “Highly configurable.”

But back to your (valid) point about the not seeing the A1 generator on the craft, why should you be able to? Isaac’s documents said that the size of the device (needles included) is a little over 2 foot in length. Plus if this is the method employed then the A1 would surely be a core component of the Drones and as such would be located on the interior, of course that’s just my supposition but it would seem to make sense.

Another issue is that Isaac also says that A1 can be switched between several modes but did he says how it is powered? Presumably the device has an external power source. This power source may simply harness an as yet unknown element which it would seem is plentiful and then transform this into some type of reliable power source.

I think if this was the case then this power source would be created, “On the fly” as and when it’s required, and if this was the case it would further suggest that this, “Transformer/generator” (for want of better words) would again be located on the interior, as it would surely be the single most important part of the craft (closely followed by the A1 device.)

Just a thought as to why you may not be able to see it, if it's there at all....................
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #318 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 12:12pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 10:35am, DrDil wrote:
Cast your minds back to when we used to have people of all Drone persuasions willing to post comments, bringing up inconsistencies, asking the right questions etc. It seems that gradually they have ceased, I thought perhaps this was as the arguments weren’t valid but upon re-reading most of the threads it seems like they were merely, “Shouted down” rather than actually silenced with facts.

I don't think that happens here unless we get the ATS-like poster (closed mind and brain dead, deny ignorance? They are the epitome of ignorance) who comes in screaming "HOAX" without any facts to back that claim up.

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“To be honest and way too obvious, a hoaxer would never have designed objects as weird and way out there as these in the first place.” & “I get a kick out of looking at the Raj pictures and studying the shadows. There is no way a hoaxer could have got them so perfect.”

Fact or opinion?

No need to state the obvious, it's opinion.

Quote:
I must point out that I have nothing but respect for all of the regulars in the Drone discussion, especially Lat who I have quoted above. As the only reason I used Latitudes posts as examples is because they are the most recent and as he’s one of the most prolific posters here.

Thank you. I also have much respect for you and your posts and read every one of them. You are definately NOT the ATS type. I can appreciate differing opinions as long as they are intelligent.

Quote:
I also don’t know if anyone else has noticed this but apart from the experts and others who are, “Invited” into the discussion and the occasional cross-poster from OMF there has been hardly any new members willing to chance a post on the Drone threads, and certainly none have posted consistently. If we ask ourselves, “Why?” I don’t think any of us will like the answer but we all must surely be aware of it.

The simplest answer being of course it mustn’t appear (from the outside looking in) to be a very hospitable place. I know it presents something of a catch22 situation, especially as the, “Hit & Run” hoax posters comments must always be addressed, but also so should any intelligent lines of enquiry, be they for or against the Drones.

I have a different take on this. I think that intelligent lines of inquiry against the reality of the drones are being exposed slowly but surely as false. I think even Saladfingers is beginning to doubt the CGI explanation. The model hanging from a wire theory was successfully discounted. The viral marketing theory becomes less likely as the days go by.

Basically, the hoax theory is losing more credibility as all angles are being investigated.
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #319 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 12:58pm »

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saladfingersThe reason (I believe). If you create something. which is probably more realistic. odd and unrealistic. lack of detail. only look real. challenge. strangely complex. doesn't fit in. odd. aaaages ago. disinformation. I don't really believe. hypothesis. belittle. detailed. serious time. originating. copy it. images. design. how they look. I'm guessing. time. achievable. made. timescale. theory. man made. (disguised as alien). who knows.


Just sossss ya know. I did this because Saladfingers has consumed almost all Isaac/drone threads with his CGI in OMF and he's pretty much caused everyone to stop posting except for the skeptics. We have a lot of time on this subject and when something like that comes in and is so self-absorbed in their masterpieces, it takes away from everything and we lose. He has not yet made anything that didn't look CGI in regard to the drones.

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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #320 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 2:27pm »

Dr Dil, your posting was excellent. If EVERYONE who posted could conduct themselves with some semblance of social grace and diplomacy, things would probably be a lot less dramatic.
Also, there just isn't anymore info on Isaac and the Drones. We are like a late-stage sun, exhausting all of our fuel until we cannot stand up against gravity any further! We are in the midst of seeing this phenomenon collapse into its own black hole, from which nothing again shall ever emerge! I have been reading the threads, but posting VERY little, as there just in not much left to re-- regurgitate.
Let us hope something new comes along--if it doesn't, I will be forced to conclude this was all an ingeniously perpetrated hoax. In my heart, I didn't believe it was a hoax, but in the vacuum of no new intelligence, doubt thrives and grows into disbelief.
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2007, 2:33pm by starsigndavid » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #321 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 3:19pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 2:27pm, starsigndavid wrote:
Let us hope something new comes along--if it doesn't, I will be forced to conclude this was all an ingeniously perpetrated hoax. In my heart, I didn't believe it was a hoax, but in the vacuum of no new intelligence, doubt thrives and grows into disbelief.


I look at the case much differently. No new information imo backs up the real side. A hoax requires a motive. A real sighting doesn't but can merely be a freak occurrence. In this case we have many freak occurrences, some which lead to the next. But where is the motive in it all? Nobody is making any money. Nobody is seeking notoriety. No viral marketing.

Why is it that doubt grows into disbelief? Have you forgotten why you began believing?

The case may simply go down into history as unsolved similar to Roswell. But what will happen next May if the sightings pick up again? I believe that more and more witnesses will come forward over the years. We have not heard the last of the drones. We also may have not heard the last from Isaac. LMH has confirmed she is still in contact with him.
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2007, 3:20pm by Latitude » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #322 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 4:26pm »

I just realized I didn't define my little picture here. Essentially, saladfingers stated today or yesterday that he can make the Big Basin drone in 2-3 days and we've spent 75 days trudging. In other words, he can attempt to destroy all that we've been doing and he can do it in 2-3 days.

It's as if he enjoys bursting bubbles whether his results are factual or not. His anti-grav CGI is good so he expects us to BELIEVE that the possibility is just that, CGI.

This is someone who in a subliminal fashion (based on his terminology) enjoys bursting bubbles. Such a person is also capable of destroying wishes, hopes and dreams. He's kept everyone from using their own imagination. More importantly, he's played the friend to everyone, the nice guy so that they would continue to accept his antics.

I hope y'all see this and if you don't, read his ALL posts and you'll see. He's a master of kissy, kissy while always making sure to say what everyone wants to hear alongside a new piece of CGI he has to show.

I will add that there is a part of him that regrets certain posts he's done. Not surprised because there is a lot of good in saladfingers but, I do see him backpedaling occasionally.

If you didn't know it already, that little green man is the saladfingers cartoon character. Google it, you'll see what I mean. This is what saladfingers looks like before I modified the picture.
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This is probably the lowest I've ever stepped but darn it, so many don't see what's going on and it's such a big unnecessary aggravation. You're fighting one way trying to get media attention and they're seeing CGI flying right and left. You're trying to get LMH to talk to you and she's only got saladfingers on her mind and the same goes for MUFON. So, low I went.

It's as if there is a war going on and you're sleeping with the enemy.
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2007, 5:35pm by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #323 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 4:39pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 3:19pm, Latitude wrote:
Why is it that doubt grows into disbelief? Have you forgotten why you began believing?
.


From an emotional point of view, I must admit that I am discouraged. It is probably my horrific "lawyer" programming, but my brain thrives on resolution to issues, one way or the other. Your reply made me think--there is no rational reason for my hopes to grow into disbelief. You are quite right, but I am fighting a mounting disappointment in nothing further coming forward. I probably invested way too much in this being THE moment in history. ATO warned me against that, but my emotions like to ignore my intellect.
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #324 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 4:57pm »

Open Minds Forum is actually supporting saladfingers and his pictures. I let them know that I felt it was suicide for UFO websites but not necessarily for theirs and I couldn't support the idea so I deleted my membership over there after telling them so.

Previous to that I posted the following.
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Why do you all allow yourselves to succumb to such?

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I've been on the forums for many years now and have experienced a tremendous amount of situations that arise and stand out from the rest. Certainly the drones and Isaac both fit that description of such things that stand out. But then to think that it only took really one person to snuff it all just sort of takes me back. It's almost as if you take the part of the military during Roswell or you're playing the part of James Oberg at NASA. You're saladfingers and you're taking down the drones and Isaac in one fell swoop and you're using OMF as your tool. The sad part is that the members are being nice about it all and allowing you to do it and I really do not think are speaking their true mind.

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I've spent the last three days reading ALL of your posts. You don't want to hear what I really have to say but I will take four paragraphs from my four Word pages of notes and post them here. Don't fault me for what I have to say because like I said, I read ALL of your posts so I'm not going to explain why I make the following comments since you'll already know why.

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Saladfingers said yesterday...
We probably annoy the hell out of you, because you can't see why we keep trying to find the holes in the case.

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Well tell us then why? Spit it out, what is it? What is your reasoning behind discouraging the drone and Isaac posters to the point of no return, because if you didn't notice, they're gone. Is it that your continuing because there might be 3 or 4 left and you want to make sure they all go away? No? Then why? Are you expecting feelings of grandeur from what it is you do? And who is "we"?

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Saladfingers said yesterday...
i think it is fair to say that all the explanations that have been considered are reasonably possible. Model, CG, or real. I hope this case does roll on. It'd be great to have another sighting. The only thing is, in the time it takes to write such a book, it might be found out to be a hoax

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Your more recent posts tell me that you feel you're losing your audience. Your words are subliminal and your sentences form a circle because they are 180 degrees out from what you said in your earlier posts.

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Truthfully however, when I ran across this one though I thought to myself, "he could have used a rabbit, maybe even Bugs Bunny" but instead he used an ass". Why an ass when rabbits are symbolic with carrots? What is an ass symbolic with?

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What I can say and will say here is something we all know and it's something we cannot change no matter how hard we try, which is that saladfingers is 100% responsible for the actions of Linda Moulton-Howe these days. I don't care if you got on the phone with her before that program aired and told her that it was CGI. I don't care because whether she stated such or not, she still would have held back the high-resolution photos because of your CGI and the CGI of others. We tried so hard to get certain things done over the past 75 days and look what stands in our way. MUFON won't even talk to us either because of your work and the list goes on.

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Saladfingers said... Does anyone else feel this way? ..I'll get my coat

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If you were in the Casebook I would say, don't forget your hat and the webmaster would be sure to applaud. CGI will continue to be the thorn in our side now as we all have to spend countless hours now weeding it all out.

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And no, I do not know how to use DrDil's diplomacy when we're dealing with nimrods.grin Diplomacy is many times a game played. A very similar game that saladfinger's put on time and time again in his posts. Y'all know me by now. I'm up front and personal and I won't succumb to such antics that hurt our trek, whatever it might be at the time.
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #325 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 5:35pm »

I am a member of both forums and I dont wish to be banned here.

I have expressed my concerns to salad on more than one occasion that he was muddying the waters with his creations.

The mods at OM have always backed up his right to create what he wants and post it there.

I understand their position and I understand yours.

I mostly agree with you ATO

Salad has de-valued many, many peoples efforts, by a lot of his comments and re-creations.

But this was bound to happen.....we cant put the CGI genie back in the bottle.

It is a fact now, that all UFO photos and video's are going to be dismissed as CGI by everyone on the outside of our community.

I believe the drone case to be real....it feels real to me

No amount of CGI re-creation is going to change that for me.

Salad has not changed my mind nor should have changed anyones mind who is a believer in this story.


You might have been a little hard on him but I respect you making a stand that you thought you had to make.



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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #326 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 5:42pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 5:35pm, murnut wrote:
Salad has not changed my mind nor should have changed anyones mind who is a believer in this story.

I know but unfortunately, he has changed the minds of hundreds and hundreds of others not to mention people have given up because he hasn't given up pushing his CGI on everyone.

I'm not hard on him, I just put it on the table because I see too much BS going on over there in those threads. I would never have it, no more then I did the Transformer, Bungie, HALO3 incidents. I gave those people a thread of their own and I said have at it. I kept it pinned to the rest of the drone/Isaac threads even, so that they never felt left out.

That's what OMF should have done with the CGI artists. Not the skeptics, just the CGI.

Saladfingers is making a mockery of ufology and we don't need him and don't want him. Nobody had the guts to say that but me is all. That's why I did it. Because nobody else could or would.
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You might have been a little hard on him but I respect you making a stand that you thought you had to make.

I wasn't hard on him. No more then a bunch of others that simply didn't have the guts to say what I said for fear of being banned.
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #327 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 6:17pm »

I think you did the right thing ATO.. Just wondering have anyone done any cgi that has come close to this yet?


And just wanted to say that this picture feels fake to me..

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dl1027/files/object/Alabama.jpg
« Last Edit: Sep 8th, 2007, 6:17pm by r0ni » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #328 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 6:27pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 2:27pm, starsigndavid wrote:
Dr Dil, your posting was excellent. If EVERYONE who posted could conduct themselves with some semblance of social grace and diplomacy, things would probably be a lot less dramatic.
Also, there just isn't anymore info on Isaac and the Drones. We are like a late-stage sun, exhausting all of our fuel until we cannot stand up against gravity any further! We are in the midst of seeing this phenomenon collapse into its own black hole, from which nothing again shall ever emerge! I have been reading the threads, but posting VERY little, as there just in not much left to re-- regurgitate.
Let us hope something new comes along--if it doesn't, I will be forced to conclude this was all an ingeniously perpetrated hoax. In my heart, I didn't believe it was a hoax, but in the vacuum of no new intelligence, doubt thrives and grows into disbelief.


Good post starsigndavid. I agree that DrDil is a class act and a hard act to follow. It is not easy to have a strong opinion and an open mind at the same time. This is the position you must have if indeed you are truly interested in the truth – if you are a believer or not.

It gets to be very difficult with the circular logic used many times in posts here. Like the debate on what would an alien craft look like (or who knows what an alien craft should look like).

For example:


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How do we know that alien technology will place multiple “hooks” for attachments on the drone?

If we believe Isaac, the personal anti-grav device can literally hold components of the craft in position. It does not need hooks or brackets. The anti-grav device will do it all. Yet we tell each other this is an alien device and you can not apply human logic to it, while we apply human logic to it, so it must have multiple “hooks” to attach things (like a Swiss army knife) when we are being told by Isaac it does not need this.

Are we not listening to what we are saying? To what Isaac says?

In my opinion, having these “hooks” and brackets on the drone scream human, not alien. This shows what we expect to see. What Isaac was saying sounds more “high tech” and alien than a hook and bracket system.

The real answer lies in the materials it is made with...
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xx Re: #5 THE DRONE ENIGMA A GLOBAL SEARCH FOR THE TR
« Reply #329 on: Sep 8th, 2007, 6:40pm »

on Sep 8th, 2007, 6:17pm, r0ni wrote:
I think you did the right thing ATO.. Just wondering have anyone done any cgi that has come close to this yet?

And just wanted to say that this picture feels fake to me..
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dl1027/files/object/Alabama.jpg


Thanks for that, I've gotten a lot of positive support thus far.
If you were following Birmingham situation from day one you would have had the opportunity to read things that are no longer available to read about Mr. Smith. He sent an email to LMH (which she published but has since removed) that really told us how he was feeling about everything with her and he felt let down by the ufo community. This was the other thing that LMH did which is how I think she lost him too. I imagine she sent to him similar comments (criticisms) such as the ones that were sent to Isaac.

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May 2006, in Birmingham, Alabama. Photo by Mr. Smith.
We found Mr. Smith's sighting to be authentic based on his frustration once accused of photoshopping the photo (digital manipulation). To read his most recent email I could tell that he didn't have a clue as to what photoshopping was and instead was up in arms and decided to give up on the UFO community since it appears to have let him down. Mr. Smith’s photo actually gave us more insight since without it, we would not have had seen the multiple power line occurrences. It was only when we saw Mr. Smith’s photo did we begin to look in a different direction.
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