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Razor
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #330 on: Oct 16th, 2007, 8:08pm »

Hi LangLee,
Well this thread is dying and the reason is that in the past every body wanted to argue with every body and critsize each other. It doesnt wash with me. Im a staright up guy if I show you something you can take it to the bank. If every one heRE wants to know the truth of Isaac then they need to get together and assemble the facts and share them. Latitude has tried to express this in the past and he is right. FYI castle4me and Von Stern are on to something in my opinion I am like you I dont claim to be the sharpest tool in the shed bUT I got friends that are and I can gaurantee if there is something to it we will get to the bottom of it. Everybody here needs to get together or it is simply gonna die away. Watch some of my posts and you will see I am a silly kind of guy that likes to research and throw in a little fun, if we fail so what, we had nothing to begin with and can start over.
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2007, 8:20pm by Razor » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #331 on: Oct 16th, 2007, 10:31pm »

I can tell you all this, The thread is not dying because of lack of effort on our part, here and OMF and other places.

So many of you I have met online have made me proud to be associated with the drone case. Because of this case, I made my way here and OMF.

Sure we have had disagreements, but most of us are passionate for the cause. In the end, no matter the outcome, I am thankful for the drones.

All of you should be proud

We gave it our all.

The only downside is the awakening to the fact that some(not all) of our UFO leaders dont have the passion that we do, or they believe in something else entirely.....The Almighty Dollar.
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #332 on: Oct 16th, 2007, 10:56pm »

on Oct 16th, 2007, 10:31pm, murnut wrote:
I can tell you all this, The thread is not dying because of lack of effort on our part, here and OMF and other places.

So many of you I have met online have made me proud to be associated with the drone case. Because of this case, I made my way here and OMF.

Sure we have had disagreements, but most of us are passionate for the cause. In the end, no matter the outcome, I am thankful for the drones.

All of you should be proud

We gave it our all.

The only downside is the awakening to the fact that some(not all) of our UFO leaders dont have the passion that we do, or they believe in something else entirely.....The Almighty Dollar.


I agree Murnut dont follow those money guys take things into your own hands and make it work dont let the thread die and lose all your efforts.
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Razor
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #333 on: Oct 16th, 2007, 10:58pm »

on Oct 16th, 2007, 10:31pm, murnut wrote:
I can tell you all this, The thread is not dying because of lack of effort on our part, here and OMF and other places.

So many of you I have met online have made me proud to be associated with the drone case. Because of this case, I made my way here and OMF.

Sure we have had disagreements, but most of us are passionate for the cause. In the end, no matter the outcome, I am thankful for the drones.

All of you should be proud

We gave it our all.

The only downside is the awakening to the fact that some(not all) of our UFO leaders dont have the passion that we do, or they believe in something else entirely.....The Almighty Dollar.


I agree MurNut dont let the thread die.
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #334 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 08:23am »


NEWS | OPINIONS | SPORTS | ARTS & LIVING | Discussions | Photos & Video | City Guide | CLASSIFIEDS | JOBS | CARS | REAL ESTATE

Dragonfly or Insect Spy? Scientists at Work on Robobugs.

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 9, 2007; A03



Vanessa Alarcon saw them while working at an antiwar rally in Lafayette Square last month.

"I heard someone say, 'Oh my god, look at those,' " the college senior from New York recalled. "I look up and I'm like, 'What the hell is that?' They looked kind of like dragonflies or little helicopters. But I mean, those are not insects."

Out in the crowd, Bernard Crane saw them, too.

"I'd never seen anything like it in my life," the Washington lawyer said. "They were large for dragonflies. I thought, 'Is that mechanical, or is that alive?' "

That is just one of the questions hovering over a handful of similar sightings at political events in Washington and New York. Some suspect the insectlike drones are high-tech surveillance tools, perhaps deployed by the Department of Homeland Security.

Others think they are, well, dragonflies -- an ancient order of insects that even biologists concede look about as robotic as a living creature can look.

No agency admits to having deployed insect-size spy drones. But a number of U.S. government and private entities acknowledge they are trying. Some federally funded teams are even growing live insects with computer chips in them, with the goal of mounting spyware on their bodies and controlling their flight muscles remotely.

The robobugs could follow suspects, guide missiles to targets or navigate the crannies of collapsed buildings to find survivors.

The technical challenges of creating robotic insects are daunting, and most experts doubt that fully working models exist yet.

"If you find something, let me know," said Gary Anderson of the Defense Department's Rapid Reaction Technology Office.

But the CIA secretly developed a simple dragonfly snooper as long ago as the 1970s. And given recent advances, even skeptics say there is always a chance that some agency has quietly managed to make something operational.

"America can be pretty sneaky," said Tom Ehrhard, a retired Air Force colonel and expert in unmanned aerial vehicles who is now at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a nonprofit Washington-based research institute.

Robotic fliers have been used by the military since World War II, but in the past decade their numbers and level of sophistication have increased enormously. Defense Department documents describe nearly 100 different models in use today, some as tiny as birds, and some the size of small planes.

All told, the nation's fleet of flying robots logged more than 160,000 flight hours last year -- a more than fourfold increase since 2003. A recent report by the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College warned that if traffic rules are not clarified soon, the glut of unmanned vehicles "could render military airspace chaotic and potentially dangerous."

But getting from bird size to bug size is not a simple matter of making everything smaller.

"You can't make a conventional robot of metal and ball bearings and just shrink the design down," said Ronald Fearing, a roboticist at the University of California at Berkeley. For one thing, the rules of aerodynamics change at very tiny scales and require wings that flap in precise ways -- a huge engineering challenge.

Only recently have scientists come to understand how insects fly -- a biomechanical feat that, despite the evidence before scientists' eyes, was for decades deemed "theoretically impossible." Just last month, researchers at Cornell University published a physics paper clarifying how dragonflies adjust the relative motions of their front and rear wings to save energy while hovering.

That kind of finding is important to roboticists because flapping fliers tend to be energy hogs, and batteries are heavy.

The CIA was among the earliest to tackle the problem. The "insectothopter," developed by the agency's Office of Research and Development 30 years ago, looked just like a dragonfly and contained a tiny gasoline engine to make the four wings flap. It flew but was ultimately declared a failure because it could not handle crosswinds.

Agency spokesman George Little said he could not talk about what the CIA may have done since then. The Office of the Director of National Intelligence, the Department of Homeland Security and the Secret Service also declined to discuss the topic.

Only the FBI offered a declarative denial. "We don't have anything like that," a spokesman said.

The Defense Department is trying, though.

In one approach, researchers funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) are inserting computer chips into moth pupae -- the intermediate stage between a caterpillar and a flying adult -- and hatching them into healthy "cyborg moths."

The Hybrid Insect Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems project aims to create literal shutterbugs -- camera-toting insects whose nerves have grown into their internal silicon chip so that wranglers can control their activities. DARPA researchers are also raising cyborg beetles with power for various instruments to be generated by their muscles.

"You might recall that Gandalf the friendly wizard in the recent classic 'Lord of the Rings' used a moth to call in air support," DARPA program manager Amit Lal said at a symposium in August. Today, he said, "this science fiction vision is within the realm of reality."

A DARPA spokeswoman denied a reporter's request to interview Lal or others on the project.

The cyborg insect project has its share of doubters.

"I'll be seriously dead before that program deploys," said vice admiral Joe Dyer, former commander of the Naval Air Systems Command, now at iRobot in Burlington, Mass., which makes household and military robots.

By contrast, fully mechanical micro-fliers are advancing quickly.

Researchers at the California Institute of Technology have made a "microbat ornithopter" that flies freely and fits in the palm of one's hand. A Vanderbilt University team has made a similar device.

With their sail-like wings, neither of those would be mistaken for insects. In July, however, a Harvard University team got a truly fly-like robot airborne, its synthetic wings buzzing at 120 beats per second.

"It showed that we can manufacture the articulated, high-speed structures that you need to re-create the complex wing motions that insects produce," said team leader Robert Wood.

The fly's vanishingly thin materials were machined with lasers, then folded into three-dimensional form "like a micro-origami," he said. Alternating electric fields make the wings flap. The whole thing weighs just 65 milligrams, or a little more than the plastic head of a push pin.

Still, it can fly only while attached to a threadlike tether that supplies power, evidence that significant hurdles remain.

In August, at the International Symposium on Flying Insects and Robots, held in Switzerland, Japanese researchers introduced radio-controlled fliers with four-inch wingspans that resemble hawk moths. Those who watch them fly, its creator wrote in the program, "feel something of 'living souls.' "

Others, taking a tip from the CIA, are making fliers that run on chemical fuels instead of batteries. The "entomopter," in early stages of development at the Georgia Institute of Technology and resembling a toy plane more than a bug, converts liquid fuel into a hot gas, which powers four flapping wings and ancillary equipment.

"You can get more energy out of a drop of gasoline than out of a battery the size of a drop of gasoline," said team leader Robert Michelson.

Even if the technical hurdles are overcome, insect-size fliers will always be risky investments.

"They can get eaten by a bird, they can get caught in a spider web," said Fearing of Berkeley. "No matter how smart you are -- you can put a Pentium in there -- if a bird comes at you at 30 miles per hour there's nothing you can do about it."

Protesters might even nab one with a net -- one of many reasons why Ehrhard, the former Air Force colonel, and other experts said they doubted that the hovering bugs spotted in Washington were spies.

So what was seen by Crane, Alarcon and a handful of others at the D.C. march -- and as far back as 2004, during the Republican National Convention in New York, when one observant but perhaps paranoid peace-march participant described on the Web "a jet-black dragonfly hovering about 10 feet off the ground, precisely in the middle of 7th avenue . . . watching us"?

They probably saw dragonflies, said Jerry Louton, an entomologist at the National Museum of Natural History. Washington is home to some large, spectacularly adorned dragonflies that "can knock your socks off," he said.

At the same time, he added, some details do not make sense. Three people at the D.C. event independently described a row of spheres, the size of small berries, attached along the tails of the big dragonflies -- an accoutrement that Louton could not explain. And all reported seeing at least three maneuvering in unison.

"Dragonflies never fly in a pack," he said.

Mara Verheyden-Hilliard of the Partnership for Civil Justice said her group is investigating witness reports and has filed Freedom of Information Act requests with several federal agencies. If such devices are being used to spy on political activists, she said, "it would be a significant violation of people's civil rights."

For many roboticists still struggling to get off the ground, however, that concern -- and their technology's potential role -- seems superfluous.

"I don't want people to get paranoid, but what can I say?" Fearing said. "Cellphone cameras are already everywhere. It's not that much different."
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #335 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 09:22am »

Just an idea I heard somewhere else, in response to the above article.

The next time one of us is at one of these types of rallies....

Bring a net and catch one. wink

Props to ufocatcher
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #336 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 1:19pm »

I Have only just started looking in to the drone thing. I thought they looked a bit like the shape of crop circles. I live in the UK and have not herd any reports of them here. Is this just a US thing?
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« Reply #337 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 4:41pm »

Not the first time the crop circle connection has been mentioned, but most of the sightings of the craft were in California, with one in Tahoe, Alabama, and Tennesse I think.

Funny, it never occured to me before, but the drones maybe a type of cropcircle itself.
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« Reply #338 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 4:51pm »

This may be a bit far out. But I was thinking, if the aliens made the crop circles, maybe they were the designs for the drones, a sort of way of showing us how to make a drone.
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #339 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 7:06pm »

on Oct 17th, 2007, 4:51pm, vinya12 wrote:
This may be a bit far out. But I was thinking, if the aliens made the crop circles, maybe they were the designs for the drones, a sort of way of showing us how to make a drone.
whats up;yes could be from a design from a cropcircle,but did not issac say the drone was some way from a downed craft of alien orgin? huh
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #340 on: Oct 17th, 2007, 10:26pm »

If by some incredible quirk of fate you folks have missed this link I am posting it .... "just in case".... But if its old news please disregard.... smiley

http://lucianarchy.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=cali1&action=print&thread=1183057365

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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #341 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 02:21am »

no I haven't seen that link. looks Interesting .
just hope my brain can make something of it lol laugh
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #342 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 10:56am »

Firstly it really needs to be made quite clear that the Caret documents, and by extension the photographed? drones, are hoaxes. It is perfectly obvious: the document talks about antigravity, which is not known to the scientific community to exist. That is not to say that antigravity does not exist, but the matter has not been determined (and in fact it probably doesn't). If Caret knew, the scientific community would know. It is this simple fact that accounts for the fact that everyone has dropped this matter, and the mainstream media has completely ignored the drones except as a media phenonenum in its own right.

It does not follow that drones do not exist, indeed I believe that I may have seen one, or rather not seen one. In 2003 I hit a golf ball and watched it disappear in mid air. Fine you say, happens to me all the time: but this was not a drive but a chip shot no more that 50m from the hole, and the ball disappeared no more than 30m from me. An extensive search failed to find the ball and it was a straight forward chip. My brother in law, who was on the green at the time, said he heard me hit the ball but never heard it land. I did not know what happened to the ball, but now I believe it may have been captured by a drone.

This interpretation relies not only on the drone accounts but the extraordinary news from the world of mainstream science: that invisibility is possible and our work on it is progressing. In 2006 invisibility for microwaves was shown. Early this month the work was extended to the visible spectrum. Seeing is believing, you can see the images on the net. Putting together the fact that we are now "allowed to" "believe in" invisibility with the drone sightings gives me my interest in this topic.

So where from here. Allow me to suggest the following:

* simple arguments show that extraterrestial civilizations are many orders of magnitude older than our own, although probably no older than 200 million years (since second generation stars with iron and so forth are required).

* for such old civilizations the main imperative is the generation of meaning, ie interest in their lives. They like to observe us for the same reasons we like to observe orangetangs and gorillas, and they do not set up embassies with us for the same reason that we do not set up embassies with orangetangs and gorillas. (The gorillas are probably debating the question whether the strange hairless apes they sometimes see really exist, with the overwhelming gorillan concensus being that such a hairless thing is physically impossible.)

* invisible drones are the efficient and cost-effective way of observing us. We may all star in a celestial version of Big Brother or SimEarth. These drones may well be pervasive, at least one every 100sq miles, possibly many more. I am guessing that a spherical object is more easily cloaked than other shapes.

* The invisibility work suggests that invisibility is harder to create for higher frequencies. It may well not be possible at all in the ultra violet and x-ray spectrum. Maybe someone who understands the physics could offer a comment on this.

* The earth is surveilled from space by various (manmade) satellites in various spectra. Possibly some of this material is publicly available and in the ultra violet or xray spectrum.

* If so such photographs should be checked for anomalies which could be drones. Obviously these anomalies would just be little dots.

* In any case we could carry out some surveillance of our own using cameras working in the x-ray spectrum. This would establish statistical patterns of observation (if it works). Once the phenomenum can be made predictable and repeatable then establishment scientists will fall over themselves rushing to study it. I suggest that those with an interest in photographing drones, such as Dougster (Urantia), push their efforts in this direction. Surely Fry's sells X-ray cameras? Just out of interest, anyone else got any disappearing golf ball stories? I suspect that if you tried to shoot down a drone, absolutely nothing would happen: the drone would capture the bullet.

Some general comments: (1) Americans worry too much about "disclosure". You don't need the approval of the government before you accept something as fact. It doesn't matter what the American government says or doesn't say. Most UFO phenonena are outside the USA in any case. European governments such as France, Belgium are becoming increasingly open. The fact that everyone are carrying around cameras in their phones are making ufo sightings, and belief in ufos, ubiquitous.
(2) You should not worry about the supposed hostile intent of ufos. If they wanted to take the planet, they would have done so 100 million years ago. Our role for aliens, sorry the 'spatially challenged', lies in the generation of meaning. Response to ufos depends on the culture. Because we English speakers have had a great run over the last 400 years of history , we are used to being in control and many of us resent the thought that anyone else could dominate us. This is why ufos struggle in English speaking governments and the USA in particular. In Europe they are more used to being conquered and not being in control, and so more accepting of ufos. In the third world they are used to total domination by foreign culture and technology, they take it for granted. Ufos are just an extension of this, no (extra) problems!
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #343 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 11:40am »

on Oct 18th, 2007, 10:56am, turkoman wrote:
Firstly it really needs to be made quite clear that the Caret documents, and by extension the photographed? drones, are hoaxes. It is perfectly obvious: the document talks about antigravity, which is not known to the scientific community to exist. That is not to say that antigravity does not exist, but the matter has not been determined (and in fact it probably doesn't). If Caret knew, the scientific community would know. It is this simple fact that accounts for the fact that everyone has dropped this matter, and the mainstream media has completely ignored the drones except as a media phenonenum in its own right.


Please make up your mind! Why do you contradict yourself? You start out saying that the drones are a hoax then spend the remainder of your post arguing with yourself. Just because Caret knew anti-gravity existed does not mean they figured out how it worked. Besides Caret was a beyond secret project and not connected with mainstream science. Also, I don't need to tell you that at one time mainstream science claimed the world was flat!

Close Encounters of the Golfing Kind? Cool story.

The possibility of invisibility has been around since 1919. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lensing
If electromagnetic radiation is only a wave in a medium, it stands to reason that control of that medium would open up all kinds of possibilities including invisibility. Don't trust your eyes. What you see is not always what you get.
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xx Re: #6 The Drone Enigma A Global Serach For The Tr
« Reply #344 on: Oct 18th, 2007, 12:04pm »

Contradiction wa, "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"- one of your blokes wasn't it?

You seem to have forgotten that Caret purportedly stands for "Commercial applications... ". Doesn't sound too secret to me. Even if it were, news that big would spread like wildfire. Thats what happens when objects start floating around laboratories.

It is a myth that people seriously believed in the middle ages that the earth was flat. Apparently there are only four instances of medieval authorities stating this. The majority of authorities thought the earth was round. See the Wikapedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_earth
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