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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 16162 times)
ABCStore
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #105 on: Dec 3rd, 2008, 8:53pm »

on Dec 3rd, 2008, 12:16pm, TeachersPet wrote:
with the sole purpose of dispelling the myth if not lie that many were pushing out of sheer ignorance that the the drone could not be duplicated.


Read my lips: "Very difficult, nearly impossible to be created FROM SCRATCH".

I support Latitude 100% (and I have 20/20 vision)

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #106 on: Dec 3rd, 2008, 11:48pm »

Well with the combined laser like focus of the DRT behind him, nothing is impossible. But you may be right abc ..it might be a burden on the poor lad, ..
Of course, why not just send the best of the pics to a certified specialist, as theyhave spent thousands of someone's money on PIs ,who have yielding nothing of substance, and are still "investigating", thousands more. personally I would have asked for a partial refund, yet isn't it odd they refuse to send them to independent analysis? And they have the burden of proof. Why that would be the perfect counter to the Analysis thus far done..Think what it might reveal..Cut right to the chase..free of pre=bias..no axe to grind as you see already
or...then again.. the perfect corroboration for the analysis that still stands. It would take less than a week to complete, in correspondence I recieved, from the last Specialist.
Sounds simple and very do-able to me or is someone afraid of what a certified analyst would determine.

Why that raises the bar..the standards..we could have something real to talk about then., I would think.
What do you think is an alternative that doesn't lower standards and would be acceptable across the board?

regards




« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:24am by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #107 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 07:27am »

on Dec 3rd, 2008, 5:21pm, Latitude wrote:
Are you kidding me? It's a 3D environment. It's not as simple as connecting dots and drawing lines in two dimensions. It's much more complicated. Maybe that concept is too much for you?

HPO's model is probably going to be the closest we can come to simulating what is actually in the photos. Even then the scale may be a problem.




So let me understand what you are saying…


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You are suggesting from your above example, using your words… “Are you kidding me? It's a 3D environment. It's not as simple as connecting dots and drawing lines in two dimensions. It's much more complicated. Maybe that concept is too much for you?”…that your example of proof there is nothing wrong with Raj’s photo is misleading (since it seems you are suggesting it can not be done)? That it is much more complicated than that?

Or is this an admission that you do not understand how to do it?

Solar angle based on compass type directions is very do-able in photographs. Your lines should be parallel to point back to the light source. It is complicated in this case because they do not point to a single light source… actually that means there are more than one light source (or there is more than one sun, and each sun acts independently on each object, the pole and the Drone). Therefore, the Drone was not in photo with the pole when the photo was taken of the pole. It is not that complicated Latitude. wink
« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008, 07:36am by Marvin » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #108 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 07:35am »

on Dec 3rd, 2008, 8:53pm, ABCStore wrote:
Read my lips: "Very difficult, nearly impossible to be created FROM SCRATCH".

I support Latitude 100% (and I have 20/20 vision)

ABC



It may take some effort (anything done well always does)... but it is not impossible, even from scratch:

*Click Here/On Image For Full-size
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The above is HPO's model (from scratch) Photoshopped in a photo. If you do a little fine tuning for lightness (gamma or brightness)... it is very impressive. This is HPO's "raw" image.


[*Mod Edit To reduce image size]
« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008, 1:18pm by DrDil » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #109 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 08:01am »

Marvin, that is a perfect example of
Success comes in Cans, Failure comes in Can'ts
« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008, 08:04am by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #110 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 10:56am »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 07:27am, Marvin wrote:
You are suggesting from your above example, using your words… “Are you kidding me? It's a 3D environment. It's not as simple as connecting dots and drawing lines in two dimensions. It's much more complicated. Maybe that concept is too much for you?”…that your example of proof there is nothing wrong with Raj’s photo is misleading (since it seems you are suggesting it can not be done)? That it is much more complicated than that?

Or is this an admission that you do not understand how to do it?


My illustrations are only suggested possibilities and will never be proof of anything. Conversely, your diagrams and anybody else's are the same.

I might be able to work out the 3 dimensional aspects involved but it would be a very time consuming endeavor. I cannot devote the necessary hours at this time. Sorry but I am only a man with a full time day job and a family.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #111 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:02pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 10:56am, Latitude wrote:
My illustrations are only suggested possibilities and will never be proof of anything. Conversely, your diagrams and anybody else's are the same.

I might be able to work out the 3 dimensional aspects involved but it would be a very time consuming endeavor. I cannot devote the necessary hours at this time. Sorry but I am only a man with a full time day job and a family.



Latitude,

I'm a family man too, and has limits...but I'll sure help finding the truth.
I think we need to think "out of the box" to determine this enigma being a hoax or not.
Just to catch up on the case:
"Isaac" saw evidence that triggered him to "explain" the presented photo's. Period.
No further evidence, but 2 emails to LMH was the only base of the entire investigation, that was presented here, by "Isaac".
AS it is evident, is that the photo's of "Ty" holds the connection to the "Primer"...HAS to be of realavance to the way this whole case was built.
IF this evidence has realavance to the other sightings, it is relavant to establish which of these were the first sighting?
I might be wrong, but the sighting of the Drone has to be the trigger for "Isaac" to come forward...right?
Which one came first?
Now, if you determine that, we're somewhat closer to the truth that we've ever been..
Now, I'm not at all an "angry man", I really would like new members to come forward with experiences that can help in this case, as I see it still has some unanswered questions.
DrDil and Marvin has done an outstanding job trying to make a view of how this "hoax" has been engineered.
Only, it has to be verified by the "hoaxter".
I know this whole endavour could have been handled better on my side. I apologize for my blunt posting. It will never happen again, as I carry deep respect of the UFO Casebook.

Merry Christmas,

DrStern
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #112 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:02pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 07:35am, Marvin wrote:
The above is HPO's model (from scratch) Photoshopped in to a photo. If you do a little fine tuning for lightness (gamma or brightness)... it is very impressive. This is HPO's "raw" image.


Ha ha! This proves you cannot recognize a real photo when you see it. The model has not been photoshopped in. Only the wires have been removed. It's actually there and this comes straight from HPO.

This is the problem with those whose minds are, shall we say, openness impaired? They see a photo which contains something that their brain does not accept so it tells them subconsciously that the photo is fake.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #113 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:16pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 12:02pm, Latitude wrote:
Ha ha! This proves you cannot recognize a real photo when you see it. The model has not been photoshopped in. Only the wires have been removed. It's actually there and this comes straight from HPO.

This is the problem with those whose minds are, shall we say, openness impaired? They see a photo which contains something that their brain does not accept so it tells them subconsciously that the photo is fake.



Sorry Lat This is what HPO says about the photo at the Drt site.....He also uses the word Photoshopped...

"This is the photo by the way, it's not at the right angle of light and still hanging on a single boom so I couldn't adjust anything, but I photo shopped the wires out of the picture."

So it was in effect Photoshopped in by erasing the wires...

« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:22pm by Radi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #114 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:22pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 10:56am, Latitude wrote:
My illustrations are only suggested possibilities and will never be proof of anything. Conversely, your diagrams and anybody else's are the same.

I might be able to work out the 3 dimensional aspects involved but it would be a very time consuming endeavor. I cannot devote the necessary hours at this time. Sorry but I am only a man with a full time day job and a family.




Law Enforcement, FBI and photo experts do not seem to agree with you Lat on this statement: "My illustrations are only suggested possibilities and will never be proof of anything. Conversely, your diagrams and anybody else's are the same. "


Let's see what they say:


Q. Is there a way a casual viewer can tell what is real from what may have been fixed?

A. While a good forgery can be very difficult to detect visually, there are certain clues that a viewer can look for. Lighting, in particular, is a powerful cue. When creating a forgery of two people, for example, it is often very difficult to perfectly match the lighting. Differences in shadow direction and softness, and lighting gradients can be a good cue. Similarly, a person's eye often contains a small white specularity which is a reflection of the light in their surroundings. Differences in the shape and color of this specularity can reveal tampering. A popular, but in my opinion unreliable, visual analysis is to magnify an image by several hundred percent and then posit about the source of small pixel artifacts. Many of these artifacts are due to compression or noise, so care must be taken when undergoing any type of visual inspection.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/farid/press/digitaljournalist08.html



Other techniques include looking for inconsistencies in lighting and shadows. A human still must make a final determination, and Farid admits he can never be certain. His techniques got challenged in one criminal case, and prosecutors withdrew him as an expert witness. "If we don't find traces of tampering, we don't say it's real," Farid said. "We say we find no traces of tampering. That's the best we can say.

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=NTM3MTg0MjI=



Brugioni (1999) realizes that image forgery is a long-existed problem that goes back to the birth of photography. He describes various traditional forgery techniques in different fields: political campaign, delivering false military information, falsifying proofs in lawsuit cases, and UFO and ghost pictures. He also includes several methods for spotting those fakery: examining lights and shadows, perspective, depth of field, discontinuous lines, and physically impossible contents of the scene.

http://www.dfrws.org/2006/proceedings/9-Lee.pdf



There are certain clues photo monitors look for. According to experts, the most common signs are differences in color or shadows, variations in graininess or pixilation, blurred images or elements in the photo that are too bright or much sharper than the rest.
http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=4383



BF: At the end of the day, a digital image is just 1s and 0s, right? How much are you looking for visual clues, and how much is an analysis of the file’s source data?

HF: We have many different forensic tools. Some looking for lighting or shadow inconsistencies, while others directly analyze the underlying pixel values. There are many ways to tamper with an image, so we need lots of different ways of analyzing images. Each case that I work on is different, and in each case I need to draw on a different approach, and sometimes create entirely new tools.

http://www.bountyfishing.com/blog/fishing/forensics-software/




A good article from the FBI:

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2005/dec2005/dec05leb.htm



It is detectable... the inconsistency has been scientifically demonstrated to you. The only question left is why you are pushing misinformation on those who do not understand?
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #115 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 12:59pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 12:02pm, Latitude wrote:
Ha ha! This proves you cannot recognize a real photo when you see it. The model has not been photoshopped in. Only the wires have been removed. It's actually there and this comes straight from HPO.




My apologies Lat, I did not mean to have the word "to" in there (or I would have written - into), so I removed it for you.

As to recognizing a real photo... I think that misses the point doesn't it? It is the object in the "real" photo that is the question. But if the realism of the photo is the issue… HPO's photo carries a "IJG-based editor" tag. wink
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #116 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 1:18pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 12:22pm, Marvin wrote:
It is detectable... the inconsistency has been scientifically demonstrated to you.

Scientific? Hardly.

Quote:
The only question left is why you are pushing misinformation on those who do not understand?
You left out the "IMO". I could say the same about you. We can both post our opinions and let the reader be the judge.

BTW, in the future would you trim your images down. You made a mess of this page.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #117 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 1:22pm »

on Dec 4th, 2008, 1:18pm, Latitude wrote:
BTW, in the future would you trim your images down. You made a mess of this page.

Great minds think alike..... wink

Interesting discussion everyone, perhaps the discrepancies can finally be resolved?

(And of course dismissed if necessary).

Cheers!!
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #118 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 2:09pm »

I posted HPO's photo from his source... so sorry, I can not control the size.

Thanks Doc for fixing the photo thing.

Peace.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #119 on: Dec 4th, 2008, 2:31pm »

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Red = Drone angle of illumination
Yellow = Pole angle of illumination


Here are the differences in illumination between the pole and the Drone. If anyone has evidence to show a significant error to make up for the 25 degree angle in difference, I am interested in seeing it.
« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008, 3:05pm by Marvin » User IP Logged

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