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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 16666 times)
Katterfelto
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1200 on: Jan 12th, 2009, 10:31pm »

Anyone know what the resolution of a mid-1980's photocopier may be?

I'm trying to see if the image quality of the Isaac docs are possible if they are based on what should be relatively low (200DPI) source. Also looking at moire patterns from the scanned halftones on some pages i.e., Inventory Review and Report Pg. 8. Trying to determine if they are consistent for a higher resolution later scan of a low rez original source. These are two items I recall standing out as a bit odd when I first saw them.

Please let me know if this has been covered in the past. It will save me wasted effort. Don't know how to exactly do this but have some ideas and hopefully have time to pursue. The easy answer is "of course they had very high resolution copiers - they are a secret agency!" grin
« Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2009, 10:32pm by Katterfelto » User IP Logged

TeachersPet
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1201 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 02:34am »

Hi Katt
I think it may have.as parc was a subsidiary of Xerox and the mid 80s saw the intro of the first laser copiers.
given they had about 200 employs they prob had several high volume which would necessitate a centralized setup..ie a copy room..with sign up requests..
and mid level..with workstations in each department..
and a mid volume printer as well as cad/emgineering copiers.
these are the models for 1985 to 1987 but HP was in the mix to, ith their 600 dpi techology..phaser color copier were introduced about that time.
example hereis an ad for a used one /used in Eng.
Used Xerox 2510 / 2515 Analog Single-Sheet Copier These Used Xerox copiers are the industry standard. ... Featuring true 600 dpi resolution and the most ...
http://www.parc.xerox.com/about/history/default.html
http://www.ipaperlessoffice.com/xedoscdo250x.html
http://www.printershowcase.com/reviews/xerox/8400.asp
models 1985-1987
corporate high volume
9900
9210
MId Volume
1065
1050
1012
Conference Copier
1090
engineering
1985-1987
3080 Copier
Pro Scan System
Versatec CE3400 Series Color Plotters
4035 Graphics Printing System
CE 3000
2510 Copier
2285 Workstation
990 Viewer/Printer
Xerox Professional Mechanical System
http://www.parc.xerox.com/about/history/default.html


TEXT
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 03:13am by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

Marvin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1202 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 07:05am »

DrDil,

I dragged and dropped the images directly from the website to Snoop (I re-did this, this morning). Here is what I get (screen dumps):

User Image

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I repeated my results with the full sized version.




on Jan 12th, 2009, 6:15pm, DrDil wrote:
Finally here’s page 19 of Isaacs site untouched:

User Image




I am confused... isn't this the CGI Jpeg data?
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 07:14am by Marvin » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1203 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 07:29am »

Thanks TP. Finding specs for this older equipment does not come easy.

I'd have to say a reasonable number is 300-600DPI with a question mark on the 600. It may not be true 600 optical or printout. I think 1200DPI very unlikely at that time.

This is probably a dead end path but I think it's at least good to verify a scan of an old photocopy of some unknown quality original can yield the final image quality. I still can't get over someone being able to scan such a sensitive document in what is suppose to be a secure setting - not once but multiple times. Copiers and secrets are like oil and water.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1204 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 07:36am »

If you compare the full sized and half sized Snoop data… you will notice someone was a busy little bee.

Even if they stripped out the EXIF data with Adobe, there are some interesting differences:

Photoshop save as 07
...verses...
Shop Elements save as 10 (and the Nikon E5700 compression signature).

Since these are the same “photo,” why is the Nikon data stripped or added? Removing the EXIF data usually does not remove the compression signatures. There seems to be a lot of manipulation here for a simple "Joe" posting photos to get the truth out.

Have you notice how all of the digital photos in the BB Drone case have Adobe Photoshop as a common denominator? Maybe it is just coincidence.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1205 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 11:43am »

on Jan 13th, 2009, 07:36am, Marvin wrote:
If you compare the full sized and half sized Snoop data… you will notice someone was a busy little bee.

Even if they stripped out the EXIF data with Adobe, there are some interesting differences:

Photoshop save as 07
...verses...
Shop Elements save as 10 (and the Nikon E5700 compression signature).

Since these are the same “photo,” why is the Nikon data stripped or added? Removing the EXIF data usually does not remove the compression signatures. There seems to be a lot of manipulation here for a simple "Joe" posting photos to get the truth out.

Have you notice how all of the digital photos in the BB Drone case have Adobe Photoshop as a common denominator? Maybe it is just coincidence.


Also in pacl-q486-report-p9-halfsize and pg8-halfsize snoop gives the info of the camera being this camera..
http://www.digitalvideoforless.com/c700uz.htm

Interesting....Is snoop that far off or was the exif stripped or was a photo taken then created the document in PS..Then printed and another photo taken of that document....Or was a photo taken of the image in the document then a photo taken of a blank document with the punch holes then composited in PS....Hmmm might never know but yep there was a little busy bee here Marin... wink laugh
« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 11:44am by Radi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1206 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 11:51am »

I think we all need to take a step back and try to see the forest, instead of studying the trees.

In 1987 it would have been a heck of a lot quicker and easier, and common, to have just used a common copy machine, rather than a scanner.
If Isaac was in fear of being discovered doing something that might have got him SHOT, would he really take all the time it took in 1987 to scan something - first waiting long enough for the scanner to create a preview, which is a coffee/cigarette break right there - then scan it - lunch break - and then print it?
That's ASKING to get shot.

Something else that's been bugging me lately is that he says "it took about a month for a team of six to copy that diagram into our drafting program!"

I don't buy this. I'm having trouble understanding why this would need to be put into a drafting program. In the '80s the majority of design and print work was drafted by hand and photographed. I know this because I was doing graphics in the '80s. In fact, we were still hand drawing, drafting, and photographing well into the '90s, because computers still were not as fast and efficient as a good artist was in a darkroom.

If some DOD bigwig had come to my art department and requested that my team recreate the PACL, and I said "We'll do it on the computer", I may as well have broke an egg on my head and shouted "PLATYPUS!" for the confused stares and awkward silence I would have received. No, we would have gotten our pencils, rulers, and compasses and started drafting. Then we would have inked the drawings with Rapidograph pens, and shot them on the static camera.
This was just how it was done in those days. Computers had hardly even registered on the design world's radar pre-'87.

Isaac's statements just get fishier and fishier to me.
This appears to me to be a person who simply cannot imagine a world where computers weren't the solution to everything. I'll let you draw your own conclusions from that.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1207 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 12:11pm »

We know its a hoax, we know the photos connected to Isaac, we know the documents if sensitive woud be marked out, and IIsaac said he did not mark out, so who marked out, and forgot to put sensitive/classified.
After hours, I would not have access to a copy room, which an OP like that would have had, as well as networked computers and documentsharing with tracing to prevent something like this. They had Guns, yet no Video cams in copy room, like the post office does for years before that.

Why put 20 year old documents through the additional grueling torture of rescanning rephotoing, again for release..which if he did would show some yellowing even with lamination which deteriorates material because of acrylic chemicals over time anyway. They were pristeen not a wrinkle or crease from stuffing in crotch or crack..it borderlines on absurd.

I am curious whether any of those Fortunecity photos match in exif data any of the photos I sent you privately.
also no mention of what photos please..as I am getting more.
We are just comparing DNA figuratively speaking from Marvins work..there may be points of commonality in the strands. smiley









« Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 12:19pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1208 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 12:33pm »

on Jan 13th, 2009, 11:51am, Albatross wrote:
I think we all need to take a step back and try to see the forest, instead of studying the trees.

In 1987 it would have been a heck of a lot quicker and easier, and common, to have just used a common copy machine, rather than a scanner.
If Isaac was in fear of being discovered doing something that might have got him SHOT, would he really take all the time it took in 1987 to scan something - first waiting long enough for the scanner to create a preview, which is a coffee/cigarette break right there - then scan it - lunch break - and then print it?
That's ASKING to get shot.




Hi Albatross,

I do not think the debate has anything to do with how “Isaac” copied or got things out. It has to do with how “Isaac” brought these documents to the public view (by digitizing them) from photocopies and photographs.

As a Jpeg, there is information that your average “Joe” is not aware of (information) that is being stored within the Jpeg (that is not the photograph itself).

For a group (being a random cross section of the public) that had a “UFO” encounter… and have some type of photographic evidence of the encounter… turns out to be a fairly astute group of people that knows how to hide this information.

Unless they are hoaxers, why would they want to do that (as a group)?

This is key… their behavior is tied as a group, their methodology is tied as a group, they have linked their sightings together as a group (well I saw Chad’s Drone blaa, blaa, blaa… I released this because I saw the same thing that I worked on blaa, blaa, blaa), their anonymity is tied as a group, deceit about location is tied as a group… and on and on.

But maybe it is all just coincidence. But it causes my "spidey" senses to "kick in."
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1209 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 12:51pm »

Thanks, Albatross. That's some interesting information. Like a lot of other people, I became familiar with design software and the documents produced with it in the past ten years, and have wondered how that stuff was made before computers became ubiquitous.

As Sysco says, we know it's a hoax and all this stuff is phony. What we can do is look for connections so we can figure out who done it and why. For my money, those problems are solved, but I realize others want to nail down all the details and even figure out just how it was done. That's fine, and interesting in itself, but we don't need to keep disproving the hoax. It's dead. Well pulverized, actually.

For anyone who is still wanting to test the Isaac fiction, here is a fun experiment: Take about ten sheets of copier paper and stuff them under your shirt and down past your belt, as Isaac claimed he did. Don't bother trying to be quick or discreet about it, just get the papers stashed and then walk around among other people and see if anyone seems to notice. cheesy Now imagine a lot of well trained guards looking for any breach of security, and video cameras all over the place. Go on, try it! It's fun. rolleyes

All the "literature" associated with the drones seems to be from the same person, or maybe a very small group. It all has a rather slapdash feel to it, as far as relating to reality. Like the bike ride. Please! That did not happen. Yes, the writing is slick, and well planned in a way, but in the end it is like the photos: obviously fake and too hopelessly superficial to be taken seriously. Again, it's like it's aimed at a TV audience ready and willing to suspend disbelief in order to enjoy the show.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1210 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 12:52pm »

Hi, Marvin -

Okay, I think I see what you're getting at...
You're saying that every one of the "witnesses" that came forward with photos/documents, went to great lengths to obscure certain digital information?
And that this may represent a pattern that links these people together?

I'm just an artist - I know next to nothing about computers, especially PCs, so all that "exif" talk got a little confusing. I thought this was a continuation of the "What kind of scanner did he use in 1987?" debate.

Sorry for the hijack smiley



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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1211 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 1:07pm »

Double Nought Spy -

Okay, so we're all agreed this is a hoax then?
Sorry, this case is new to me (don't ask me where I've been the last year and a half - out to lunch, apparently) and initially fascinated me, but now I'm convinced it's a hoax and keep trying to come up with more ways to prove it.
Guess I've been beating a dead horse...
I'll stop now.

Thanks! smiley

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1212 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 1:16pm »

ahhh now we are in same page
Albatross, you didnt jack anything bro..what were the other words you got from your tinkering..was that womn phrase part of that? or you just put that down. I would like to know so I can finish seeing what else I can get..Iisaaic was the first..what was the others. PM them if you would like.
Thanx!
@double
Again, it's like it's aimed at a TV audience ready and willing to suspend disbelief in order to enjoy the show.
that is so spot on..Ed woods did that..where he used scenes where cardboard parts of a cokpit would move, when they were not supposed to..but the audience suspends their finetuning for the rest of the pictures story..
It works too..of course movie critics have a field day with that stuff, as we do with this hoax..

I found a link at Newsvine.com, which is registered in Microsofts name..while looking up a character Mars had mentioned..Tom L vine...in one of his first posts at Paracast..and found an article among many about a hoax that was debunked in Oklahoma. Turned out the hoaxer was a student doing a psych paper on "beliefs despite the evidence"..along Gorgos theme..Really fascinating..I will add link to it ..in a bit.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1213 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 1:21pm »

on Jan 13th, 2009, 1:07pm, Albatross wrote:
Double Nought Spy -

Okay, so we're all agreed this is a hoax then?
Sorry, this case is new to me (don't ask me where I've been the last year and a half - out to lunch, apparently) and initially fascinated me, but now I'm convinced it's a hoax and keep trying to come up with more ways to prove it.
Guess I've been beating a dead horse...
I'll stop now.

Thanks! smiley



laugh Ha ha! Don't feel bad, we've all been beating this poor wretched thing for a very long time. There isn't even anyone still pushing the idea that it's x% real anymore, and we continue to pound on its rotting carcass! I think we're all crazy, actually.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #1214 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 1:31pm »

on Jan 13th, 2009, 12:52pm, Albatross wrote:
Hi, Marvin -

Okay, I think I see what you're getting at...
You're saying that every one of the "witnesses" that came forward with photos/documents, went to great lengths to obscure certain digital information?
And that this may represent a pattern that links these people together?

I'm just an artist - I know next to nothing about computers, especially PCs, so all that "exif" talk got a little confusing. I thought this was a continuation of the "What kind of scanner did he use in 1987?" debate.

Sorry for the hijack smiley







Hi Albatross,

You did not hijack anything. smiley

It was a good question. How did Isaac get such high quality copies of the LAP (from that time frame)? This has been brought up before... but it died of its own volition.

May I add, he must have been wearing wrinkle free pants... rolleyes
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