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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 26094 times)
Latitude
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #135 on: Dec 7th, 2008, 8:47pm »

on Dec 7th, 2008, 1:56pm, Marvin wrote:
Unfortunately Lat, I have offered objective evidence demonstrating my point. What do you have to offer besides retracted/changed evidence and opinion?

Well, this for starters:
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Your black line on the pole is not in the correct place either. You can see daylight on the back side of it.

To TP,

Your attempts to start a fight on the forum will have no effect on me. Yes, I do believe the Reed Alien case to be another one where the debunkers beat it down prematurely without giving it a fair hearing just like the drones. But that is why you and your kind are here on these boards, to scoff at and ridicule those with open minds who only want to give these sighting and reports a fair shake. You people drum up so called "evidence" and "facts" and anybody who dares question is ganged up on by forum bullies.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #136 on: Dec 7th, 2008, 8:58pm »

Maybe this will help you Lat, here is another look at the shadows that was made by 1111 (as shown in 3DS max):

It rotates the light source 360 degrees around the pole…


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Here are the two angles of interest:


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Note: the arrow points towards the light source.

The top view, is the solar illumination of the pole. This is what we see in Raj's photo.

The bottom view, is the solar illumination of the Drone. You can now more easily see the the difference in how the pole should look if the lighting on the Drone is correct.

But of course, you have seen this all before.

« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2008, 9:04pm by Marvin » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #137 on: Dec 7th, 2008, 9:28pm »

The bottom view is the one that is closest to correct.

The thing that explains why (and conveniently left out by the debunking crowd) the shadow at the top of the pole looks different is because the insulators on top of the crossbars were not a part of the 3D illustration and came from the Raj photo with the drone in it. These two were superimposed for illustration purposes. If the insulators at the top were included the 3D would show a shadow closer to what is in the photo.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #138 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 04:55am »

on Dec 7th, 2008, 2:16pm, TeachersPet wrote:
end of quote..
but not an end to this Fraud


Sad to say, but IMO, the driving force that has been most harmful to having any positive debate or outcome about the drones has been your influence. You have just validated the character judgement made about you that I unfortunately took too long to accept.

Perhaps we all need a bit more of:

http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=Cbk980jV7Ao
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #139 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 07:51am »

I am about done playing your games Lat, you have yet to provide any evidence to demonstrate one light source.

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This is the way the pole is illuminated, notice the top of the pole in not in complete shadow… I assume the partial shadow on the top of the pole is due to the hardware (insulators) sitting on top.

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This is Raj’s Photo

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If what you are suggesting is true, the top of the pole should be in shadow (as in this example, which you say is the closest to being correct). As anyone can see in Raj’s photo, it is not. That alone rules out your idea as being wrong.

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You had to change your sun direction on the Drone from your red lines to the green line (in the above picture, which now agrees with me). Looks like you need to take a closer look at the pole too.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #140 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 09:46am »

on Dec 8th, 2008, 07:51am, Marvin wrote:
Iyou have yet to provide any evidence to demonstrate one light source.


Marvin, not to take any side here, but speaking independently.. over the past 3 days I've been looking really hard for any evidence that the sun is not elevated over the side postion you have it on. Forget time stamp.. just going on all the shadows I've studied on this pic combination for 1.5 years now.. I still can not see any substance showing why the sun could not be at a 2 or 2.5 oclock position over the horizon.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #141 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 10:12am »

on Dec 8th, 2008, 07:51am, Marvin wrote:
I am about done playing your games Lat, you have yet to provide any evidence to demonstrate one light source.

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If what you are suggesting is true, the top of the pole should be in shadow (as in this example, which you say is the closest to being correct). As anyone can see in Raj’s photo, it is not. That alone rules out your idea as being wrong.


You keep forgetting that this photo is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3D scene. Not only does the inclusion of insulators make the shadow but also the black arrow should be pointing away from the camera. The sun angle is slightly above the crossbars. This cannot be shown in the Raj pic with arrows. Here is my crude illustration.
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Also, you are cheating with your green lines. That's not where I drew them.

« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2008, 10:13am by Latitude » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #142 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 11:26am »

on Dec 8th, 2008, 10:12am, Latitude wrote:
You keep forgetting that this photo is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3D scene. Not only does the inclusion of insulators make the shadow but also the black arrow should be pointing away from the camera. The sun angle is slightly above the crossbars. This cannot be shown in the Raj pic with arrows. Here is my crude illustration.
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I want to be sure I understand what you are showing… the red line is the direction of the sunlight? And the Drone is in its approximate location to the pole?


BTW... I think it is a very good drawing Lat. I just want to be sure you have things lined up the way you think it works.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #143 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 12:09pm »

on Dec 8th, 2008, 09:46am, tomi01uk wrote:
Marvin, not to take any side here, but speaking independently.. over the past 3 days I've been looking really hard for any evidence that the sun is not elevated over the side postion you have it on. Forget time stamp.. just going on all the shadows I've studied on this pic combination for 1.5 years now.. I still can not see any substance showing why the sun could not be at a 2 or 2.5 oclock position over the horizon.




Hi Tomi,

Glad to have you aboard.

You ask a good question, but if I understand what you are saying (about the suns distance above the horizon), then I think you maybe misunderstanding my argument. Here is what I have said:



on Dec 5th, 2008, 3:22pm, Marvin wrote:
One other thing I forgot to point out... do you know the difference between a pipe and a pole?

A pipe is the same diameter along its entire length.

A pole tapers (or gets narrower in diameter) towards the top (or far) end.

Due to the shape of the pole (as it narrows), yes the shadow will become “smaller” as the diameter becomes smaller.

Wood poles are notorious for not being perfectly straight… so there is a change of some (minor) deformity with this pole. But there is not enough of an issue that we cannot determine the compass direction of the sun on the pole.

The shadow’s edge goes through the bolt that secures the cross bars at the very top of the pole (therefore the cross bar basically points to the light source, to the right). That is how we know the follow diagram is correct:

User Image


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Ignore the red circles on this.

I hope this is helpful.




Edit to add:

I can see there is still some confusion for those who do not work with this.

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The pole can be used like a sun dial... but:

1. We are not looking at the shadow on the ground, we are looking at the shadow on the vertical pole.

2. We are only looking at what “compass” direction the light is coming from (so we are only looking at it two dimensionally) and how it illuminates the vertical pole.


Then we can also apply this same reasoning to the Drone as well.




Specifically, I want to point out this statement:

“Wood poles are notorious for not being perfectly straight… so there is a change of some (minor) deformity with this pole. But there is not enough of an issue that we cannot determine the compass direction of the sun on the pole.”

“2. We are only looking at what “compass” direction the light is coming from (so we are only looking at it two dimensionally) and how it illuminates the vertical pole.”

So I am not even addressing the difference in elevation of the sun between the two objects (the Drone and the pole… although that has been done by Kris)… I am just looking at the difference in “compass” directions… in other words, if we had a view from directly above the scene (its zenith) and were looking down on it… I am talking about the difference in direction we would see the two light source coming from (as if they were only horizontal to the objects. And in this case, it is not far from where there light sources are coming from. See below:

User Image

I hope this is more helpful.



Edit to add:

The sun has to be coming from the same direction on all objects (all of the lines for the source of the sun must be parallel and come from the same "compass" direction... or you have a big problem like this one).

If you look at the direction of the sun on the pole and the location of the Drone... which is on the wrong side of the pole to cast a shadow on it for either sun location, there can be no shadows cast on the pole from the Drone, even if the sun were high enough in the sky to do this... which would be closer to 1:30 PM and not at 5:42PM. LOL.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #144 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 12:36pm »

Marvin, thanks for putting so many examples out, but it is that pole example that persuaded me that the lines as indicated by Lat are as I have thought all along and I call that the 2:00 to 2 1/2 oclock position.

If you stop the animated gif that Kris made at a point that comes from that direction, I find the shadows on the pole to be much closer to the photo example.

The curve of that crossbar shadow is indicative imo of a more elevated sun.
Cheers smiley

« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2008, 12:38pm by tommi01 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #145 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 1:12pm »

Do you mean the GIF Kris did:

on Dec 3rd, 2008, 07:13am, Marvin wrote:
User Image




Or the one by 1111:

on Dec 7th, 2008, 8:58pm, Marvin wrote:
Maybe this will help you Lat, here is another look at the shadows that was made by 1111 (as shown in 3DS max):

It rotates the light source 360 degrees around the pole…


User Image



Here are the two angles of interest:


User Image


Note: the arrow points towards the light source.

The top view, is the solar illumination of the pole. This is what we see in Raj's photo.

The bottom view, is the solar illumination of the Drone. You can now more easily see the the difference in how the pole should look if the lighting on the Drone is correct.

But of course, you have seen this all before.




On 1111’s GIF, I provided the two locations the best I could.


Personally, I think Kris put more time and fine tuning/accuracy into his GIF overlay where 1111 was just trying to get the idea across... but in my opinion, they both did a great job.

I hope this is helpful.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #146 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 1:37pm »

There are many mistakes in both of those gifs. Mistakes compounding mistakes. There are so many I don't have time to point them all out.

But no matter. The truth of this will likely one day be proved just for you Marvin.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #147 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 1:54pm »

on Dec 8th, 2008, 11:26am, Marvin wrote:
[quote author=Latitude link=board=drone&num=1223123924&start=141#9 date=1228752748]

You keep forgetting that this photo is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3D scene. Not only does the inclusion of insulators make the shadow but also the black arrow should be pointing away from the camera. The sun angle is slightly above the crossbars. This cannot be shown in the Raj pic with arrows. Here is my crude illustration.
User Image


I want to be sure I understand what you are showing… the red line is the direction of the sunlight? And the Drone is in its approximate location to the pole?


BTW... I think it is a very good drawing Lat. I just want to be sure you have things lined up the way you think it works.




You did not respond to my question Lat.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #148 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 2:04pm »

Because Marvin.. its just as Torvald said..on this last July..
This reminds me so much of the conversation Torvald had at with these same folx..at OM..
I cannot link as I was just banned from there.
.However I
found this there anyway...

Your example of ambient light is lacking so much realism that it's hardly an example of the natural conditions occuring at the time.

Light scatters and reflects. Yours is flat and unnatural. There was a high sun at the time, no clouds to speak of, light was bright in the conditions of the photo, your example shows nothing of this. [/quote]

now. you want more you do work for self. i read many comment but nobody show work. tomi say this number say that spf33 say other, he say she say whatever. say many things signify nothing. do not even know why subsurface scattering used for! but pretend to sound important. go grab something else off internet and be five minute expert. not mean to sound offend but tired or going over and over same ground same results many times calculate result same.

photographs are hoax. accept it or not nothing i can do to help you. some of you like closed book and will not accept fact data. you excuse and misdirect and talk on things you know little or nothing about. maybe you see this comment as insult. sorry but it just factual like data. if you no accept it fine but not insulting to say. i put many many hours into study. i careful to not to be inaccurate. i try to listen to RELEVANT argument. very little of that! mostly see the monkey!

so final word. photograph vanishing point accurate. simulation scene geomentry accurate. photograph perspective study accurate. evidence given. solution calculated. results accurate. sun angle azimuth solution good. lighting solution good. bounces reflection everything there for tomi. i am being tired. long day and this on top of. i will write better summary for other thread later.


Which Torvald.. did..and still stands..
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #149 on: Dec 8th, 2008, 2:04pm »

on Dec 8th, 2008, 11:26am, Marvin wrote:
I want to be sure I understand what you are showing… the red line is the direction of the sunlight? And the Drone is in its approximate location to the pole?

Yes and yes. Approximate. There are some scale differences but you get the general idea. There was much calculation done about the sun angle that fateful day in Capitola. Don't make me rehash all that but it basically agrees with my crude drawing.

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