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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 376 times)
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #15 on: Nov 18th, 2008, 3:06pm »

on Nov 18th, 2008, 10:53am, TeachersPet wrote:
I am sure if there had been something, you would have been the very first to find out.

I am afraid, if there was any cheese in the refrigerator, it's view has been obfuscated by the reams of bologney put out not by the government but by the hoaxers like Isaac , warners, commercialists, and LMH and C2c, that produce vast quantities of it for our consumption. (personally I like a good German Baloney, the best)
I suggest we clean out the refrigerator and restock it with fresh meat, as old baloney can have unpleasant effects.
If others insist otherwise..well....

Bon Apetite.
smiley


Hi TeachersPet I'm still on the fence where the drone is concerned. Yes I have my issues with LMH and good ole Issac but I haven't seen conclusive proof yet to disprove it. Granted I'm not a drone buff and I'm only slightly interested now due to the lack of NEW evidence but the door is still ajar where I'm concerned.

BTW I like fried bologna! grin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #16 on: Nov 18th, 2008, 3:40pm »

on Nov 18th, 2008, 2:57pm, DrDil wrote:
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Now that is one absolute I agree with, DrDil, and without disparaging any member, it looks quite apparent the attempt to revive discussion by those ignoring results of analysis, ie, proof, and ignoring the absolute need for witness, the inconsistent and contradictory statements of isaac, and lying by witneses..analyzed here!, and yet, they bring nothing new except same hackneyed rhetoric..over and over , and somehow..that is supposed to make this a real event.
Not one alien has been produced, not one artifact, from anywhere to even tie this event to. (except Chupacabras from Brazil, Shirley..and even that Uruguay, that Reed artifact and Jamie in Mexico, and ..Robert even)..Anything and everything...just to keep Caret talk going..
They can draw any line they like, and redefine the burdens of proof if they wish..The Reality is..they can't meet even meet the Reasonable test , let alone insanely request absolute from us, who will not change the rules, to suit a desired result.
They asked for testing when they critiqued Biedny and others.. ..they got it..now they can live with it..we certainly can.
Its comical you have them at another site, attempting to do same, in sheer desparation..with the help of higher ups, yet it is to no avail.
Instead its causing a hemmorage of all the level headed to consider leaving and wonder just what their true motive is in the absence of any proof this is anything but a hoax...
..I only posted , because I thought Dr Stern knew better..than to mix this hoax with research in propulsion , heck you can use startrek for that, we need to let them know..we can see through this facade or charade..
Its not discussion..its propaganda.
The Drone Mystery..is no longer a mystery.
To anyone who has read the work done by those such as yourself DrDil..truly detailed, exhaustive, as Marvins, and Allisone, and Torvald..
Its an insult for anyone to come an act as if that work had never happened.
Work done in a passionate search for Truth, NOT a one sided result the others wished for, and have lied for, and continue to supress evidence of hoax..such as Tom Vances involvemnt, who really exposed the witness lying as to location., or the other Needle nose Drone, just a couple of miles away, where the boyfriend wrote email..that girl had lied, but won't release email .. They released walter..because Walter would have gone over their head.,
So Sad, even if it means lying, and misdirecting ..just like a hoaxer..the questions should be, why did they lie, and not demand absolutes from us. We did our part..Honestly and truthfully, and for the average person..convincingly.

By Jove..Gforce good to see you..Reed didnot follow us here did he? cheesy

« Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2008, 4:00pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #17 on: Nov 19th, 2008, 6:15pm »

DrStern i think i would weigh in on the real side, i'll agree with some others here that isn't convenced its a hoax. On a side note anyone involved in these forms, would you try to submit any info, i mean photos and maybe a sentence or two, it would be like handing them a banana clip.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #18 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 04:19am »

I have selected a couple of papers, that in a professional way shows how to find out if a digital photo is authentic or not:

PUBLICATIONS
Digital Forensics

http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Research/LukFriSPIE06_v9.pdf

Detecting Digital Image Forgeries Using Sensor Pattern Noise

--o0o--

http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Research/Crop_scale.pdf

Camera Identification from Cropped and Scaled Images

--o0o--

Have these methods been used on the photo series of the Drones?

DrStern
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #19 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 07:46am »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 04:19am, DrStern wrote:
I have selected a couple of papers, that in a professional way shows how to find out if a digital photo is authentic or not:

PUBLICATIONS
Digital Forensics

http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Research/LukFriSPIE06_v9.pdf

Detecting Digital Image Forgeries Using Sensor Pattern Noise

--o0o--

http://www.ws.binghamton.edu/fridrich/Research/Crop_scale.pdf

Camera Identification from Cropped and Scaled Images

--o0o--

Have these methods been used on the photo series of the Drones?

DrStern


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Do you mean something like this:


JPEGsnoop 1.2.0 by Calvin Hass
www.impulseadventure.com/photo/
-------------------------------

Filename: [C:\Marvin\Raj\PICT0017.jpg]
Filesize: [388766] Bytes

EXIF IFD0 @ Absolute x[00000026]
Dir Length = x[000C]
[IFD0.x0103 ] = 6
[ImageDescription ] = MINOLTA DIGITAL CAMERA
[Make ] = MINOLTA CO.,LTD
[Model ] = DiMAGE X
[Orientation ] = 1
[XResolution ] = 72/1
[YResolution ] = 72/1
[ResolutionUnit ] = 2
[Software ] = V100-02
[DateTime ] = 2007:05:16 17:43:02
[YCbCrPositioning ] = 2
[ExifOffset ] = x00FA
Offset to Next IFD = [000001F0]

EXIF IFD1 @ Absolute x[0000020E]
Dir Length = x[0005]
[Compression ] = 6
[XResolution ] = 72/1
[YResolution ] = 72/1
[JpegIFOffset ] = 578
[JpegIFByteCount ] = 2409
Offset to Next IFD = [00000000]

EXIF SubIFD @ Absolute x[00000118]
Dir Length = x[0010]
[ExposureProgram ] = 2
[ISOSpeedRatings ] = 100
[ExifVersion ] = x30323230
[DateTimeOriginal ] = 2007:05:16 17:43:02
[DateTimeDigitized ] = 2007:05:16 17:43:02
[ComponentConfiguration ] = x01020300
[CompressedBitsPerPixel ] = 4/1
[MeteringMode ] = 5
[LightSource ] = 0
[Flash ] = 0
[FlashPixVersion ] = x30313030
[ColorSpace ] = 1
[ExifImageWidth ] = 1600
[ExifImageHeight ] = 1200
[FileSource ] = x03000000
[SceneType ] = x01000000


*** Searching Compression Signatures ***

Signature: 0166B0BC0B82C8233430BF67FA31C829
Signature (Rotated): 0166B0BC0B82C8233430BF67FA31C829
File Offset: 0 bytes
Chroma subsampling: 1x1
EXIF Make/Model: OK [MINOLTA CO.,LTD] [DiMAGE X]
EXIF Makernotes: NONE
EXIF Software: OK [V100-02]

Searching Compression Signatures: (3314 built-in, 0 user(*) )

EXIF.Make / Software EXIF.Model Quality Subsamp Match?
------------------------- ----------------------------------- ---------------- --------------
SW :[Adobe Photoshop ] [Save As 10 ]

ASSESSMENT: Image is very likely processed/edited
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #20 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 11:31am »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 07:46am, Marvin wrote:
SW :[Adobe Photoshop ] [Save As 10 ]

ASSESSMENT: Image is very likely processed/edited


This does not prove anything either way. All it does is identify the Adobe Photoshop tag and determine because of that the photo was processed. This never was disputed. According to our examination, the Raj photos likely had color correction applied at a minimum. If that's enough for you or anybody else to proclaim hoax, so be it then. It's a hoax. Move on. But the fact that you continue to beat the subject up means to me that you either am not convinced in your secret mind or you have an agenda to make sure others think a certain way.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #21 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 11:33am »

Quote:
Do you mean something like this:


JPEGsnoop 1.2.0 by Calvin Hass
www.impulseadventure.com/photo/


Hi Marvin!

Yes, I mean something like this. I'll need 3 (three) or more (preferably) lists like this from 3 different digital image programs - source of these programs has to be of different origin. This counts for every single photo.

To summon data that is trustworthy enough to start a paper on these "Drone photo's" it is of the atmost importance that all single photo's has been tested (3 or more times by each program) and the result is similar (or close) to the one you present here.

Furthermore, it would be interesting to know if the images provided by "Isaac" really are scans, and not manipulated photo's.

I'm sure some programs to determine this is available on the Internet.

Latitude wrote:
Quote:
This does not prove anything either way. All it does is identify the Adobe Photoshop tag and determine because of that the photo was processed. This never was disputed.

I agree 100 %. But if we do not try...this whole thread will lose it's purpose grin

DrStern
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2008, 12:44pm by DrStern » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #22 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 2:11pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 11:31am, Latitude wrote:
This does not prove anything either way. All it does is identify the Adobe Photoshop tag and determine because of that the photo was processed. This never was disputed. According to our examination, the Raj photos likely had color correction applied at a minimum. If that's enough for you or anybody else to proclaim hoax, so be it then. It's a hoax. Move on. But the fact that you continue to beat the subject up means to me that you either am not convinced in your secret mind or you have an agenda to make sure others think a certain way.


Hi all smiley,

Lat I believe as EVS pointed out that Marvin was (by answering EVS’ question) merely discussing the Drones, and as this is the Drone discussion board…..

Besides the fact that nobody had even hinted at the fact that the because the EXIF data shows Photoshop was used in the editing process that it qualifies the image as a hoax, in fact I find it a little strange that you were so quick to assume that this is what was implied.

Furthermore, it appears as if you are both in 100% agreement!!

on Nov 21st, 2008, 07:46am, Marvin wrote:
ASSESSMENT: Image is very likely processed/edited

on Nov 21st, 2008, 11:31am, Latitude wrote:
This does not prove anything either way. All it does is identify the Adobe Photoshop tag and determine because of that the photo was processed.

So, what’s the problem?

It’s also getting a little tired when anyone who believes the image/s are hoaxed offers an opinion then someone such as yourself states that if this is what they believe then they should, “Move on.”

Why?

I believe that not only the images are hoaxed but that none of the witnesses even exist (as claimed/portrayed).

Why in your opinion should my personal belief have anything to do with whether I should comment or not?

And with respect, who are you to tell anyone to, “Move on”?

on Nov 21st, 2008, 11:31am, Latitude wrote:
“But the fact that you continue to beat the subject up means to me that you either am not convinced in your secret mind or you have an agenda to make sure others think a certain way.”

It’s that kind of thinking and public statement that is typical from those who believe in the reality of the Drones. You rarely (if ever) hear that kind of statement from the pro-hoaxers, in fact you are more likely to hear the exact opposite as I’ve often seen the pro-hoaxers ask for analysis/evidence to be presented that can refute their position or that could strengthen the argument for real.

I put it to you that the above statement you made shows a blatant agenda at work….. undecided

And as for, “Beat the subject up?!”

That certainly WASN’T what was happening, EVS simply asked a question which Marvin answered. So I ask you to please refrain from attempting to stifle or police the discussion while here at UFOCasebook and save the selective ethics for any other forums you may frequent.

Anyway, it’s nice to see Marvin & EVS posting again regardless of what you think…..

Cheers.

EVS, (regarding your signature) unless you’re planning on leaving us again then there should be a *c* in *exiting* wink.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #23 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 2:28pm »

Quote:
EVS, (regarding your signature) unless you’re planning on leaving us again then there should be a *c* in *exiting*


Hi DrDil,

I thank you for detecting my small "mishap".. grin

Typo

EVS,,,oops DrStern cool

Ps: I'm neither "pro" or "con". Just want to know the truth behind this amazing story. Until 100 % proven I choose to believe...so some will say I'm "pro" grin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #24 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 2:42pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 2:11pm, DrDil wrote:
I put it to you that the above statement you made shows a blatant agenda at work….. undecided

I only have one agenda. Open mindedness.

Quote:
So I ask you to please refrain from attempting to stifle or police the discussion while here at UFOCasebook and save the selective ethics for any other forums you may frequent.

Those are serious accusations there, DD. Who's stifling who? I enjoy stimulating discussion especially in the drone thread. Check my posting history. I only sought to clarify the Jpeg Snoop conclusion.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #25 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 3:07pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 2:42pm, Latitude wrote:
Those are serious accusations there, DD. Who's stifling who? I enjoy stimulating discussion especially in the drone thread. Check my posting history. I only sought to clarify the Jpeg Snoop conclusion.

I’m well aware of your history and they’re not accusations Lat they’re fact.

Marvin answered EVS question then you flew off on a tangent accusing Marvin of stating hoax when no such thing was posted and then suggesting he should move on.

Stifling: repressive in not allowing full expression.

Stimulating: to encourage something such as an activity or a process so that it will begin, increase, or develop.

Stimulating: Such as EVS proposing the EXIF theory then encouraging others to help investigate it with him.

Stimulating: Such as Marvin taking EVS up on this idea an stating that the Photoshop tag was suggestive of the image being, “Very likely processed/edited.”

Stifling: You then telling Marvin to move on if that’s what he thought and that you can’t understand why he doesn’t (move on) unless he has, “An agenda trying to make sure others think a certain way.”

Stifling: You accusing Marvin of beating up the subject when in fact he was stimulating discussion.

on Nov 21st, 2008, 2:42pm, Latitude wrote:
I only have one agenda. Open mindedness.

Quote:
Some minds remain open long enough for the truth not only to enter but to pass on through by way of a ready exit without pausing anywhere along the route.

Elizabeth Kenny



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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #26 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 3:11pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 2:28pm, DrStern wrote:
Hi DrDil,

I thank you for detecting my small "mishap".. grin

Typo

EVS,,,oops DrStern cool

Ps: I'm neither "pro" or "con". Just want to know the truth behind this amazing story. Until 100 % proven I choose to believe...so some will say I'm "pro" grin

Always a pleasure EVS wink,

Perhaps the best way forward would be to establish a timeline regarding the images, i.e. who handled them, if the EXIF shows they were edited theb was it a PC or Mac (like LMH uses), scanned, emailed or hard-mailed etc. etc.

Perhaps if you ask Lat nicely he may ‘stimulate’ the discussion further by sharing what he knows…..

Cheers. smiley
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #27 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 3:23pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 11:31am, Latitude wrote:
This does not prove anything either way. All it does is identify the Adobe Photoshop tag and determine because of that the photo was processed. This never was disputed. According to our examination, the Raj photos likely had color correction applied at a minimum. If that's enough for you or anybody else to proclaim hoax, so be it then. It's a hoax. Move on. But the fact that you continue to beat the subject up means to me that you either am not convinced in your secret mind or you have an agenda to make sure others think a certain way.





I think you are reading more into my post than I placed there Lat. I was just responding to a question with a question.

Quote:
Searching Compression Signatures: (3314 built-in, 0 user(*) )

EXIF.Make / Software EXIF.Model Quality Subsamp Match?
------------------------- ----------------------------------- ---------------- --------------
SW :[Adobe Photoshop ] [Save As 10 ]

ASSESSMENT: Image is very likely processed/edited


As you are aware, the above is the assessment of the software… and yes, this is old news to us, but not to everyone.

Quote:
This does not prove anything either way.



So, if you want to point out the obvious, this is objective evidence or proof. It is proof the photo was washed through Photoshop. Since Photoshop can be a bit pricey, I would have to assume people do not go out drop this kind of cash just to download photos for their camera (isn’t that software included with the camera?). So if they are not buying it to download photos, what are they using Photoshop for?

It is a glaring red flag that has to be examined and explained (and not speculated as meaningless).

Oh, and not to mention that the Raj drones have the shadow fingerprints of being CGI with a secondary sun source (which have been documented). Other than that, you are correct… the Photoshop tag does not prove anything. wink
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #28 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 3:38pm »

This is getting so entangled but I stand by my post to you Marvin.

Please show us the result of 3 or more programs, and as DrDil says, search the timeline of the photo's.

The more "clean" the photo's are the better chance there is to establish the unity of the different outputs.

DrStern
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #29 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 4:16pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 3:38pm, DrStern wrote:
This is getting so entangled but I stand by my post to you Marvin.

Please show us the result of 3 or more programs, and as DrDil says, search the timeline of the photo's.

The more "clean" the photo's are the better chance there is to establish the unity of the different outputs.

DrStern



If you are interesting in ROI analysis, then I understand your desire to see three analysis... but considering some of this software is leased by the year (at $25,000 per year), I personally do not have the deep pockets for such a thing.

While people have offered to help pay for such an analysis... the interest has not be all that high to get it done (I can only speculate that is more fun to keep the myth alive than to place another nail in the coffin). With the Drone and Isaac photos, we have a number of "dead" bodies (and the objective evidence to show they are “dead”)... but there are those who are not willing to go to the visitation, much less the funeral.
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