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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 16370 times)
Marvin
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Mmm, yes, very curious, very interesting....


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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #165 on: Dec 9th, 2008, 4:53pm »

on Dec 9th, 2008, 3:53pm, Latitude wrote:
I don't know if you've seen this one before. It's one I did to illustrate the sun angle consistency between two pics that
were taken 4 seconds apart according to the exif data. Notice the clouds and how they correlate with that time frame.

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Yes, the orientation of the drone is maintained.


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But, if that is the correct direction for the sun on the pole, the shadow (circled) should go across the upright pole (the cross bar would block the light from hitting it)... yet there a small amount of light on the right in both photo 16 and 17 in this location. So, you need to rotation the light source back in the direction were I show it in order to work.

Been there, done that. grin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #166 on: Dec 10th, 2008, 03:12am »

Thank you Marvin for reaffirming the laws of Physics.
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x7tLByWzJSc

I will return now to my Christmas Shopping.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EYtYw5neWCQ

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Latitude
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #167 on: Dec 10th, 2008, 09:28am »

on Dec 9th, 2008, 4:53pm, Marvin wrote:
But, if that is the correct direction for the sun on the pole, the shadow (circled) should go across the upright pole (the cross bar would block the light from hitting it)... yet there a small amount of light on the right in both photo 16 and 17 in this location. So, you need to rotation the light source back in the direction were I show it in order to work.


So if I understand correctly, your entire beef is about that shadow at the top of the pole under the crossbar and that it could not be made from light that is consistent on the drone. OK. We should find out soon.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #168 on: Dec 10th, 2008, 09:38am »

On these photos sunlight should not be represented as straight lines, it should be slightly curved.

IMHO

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Marvin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #169 on: Dec 10th, 2008, 2:15pm »

on Dec 10th, 2008, 09:38am, ABCStore wrote:
On these photos sunlight should not be represented as straight lines, it should be slightly curved.

IMHO

ABC




Light always travels the “shortest path.” While it is true, the shortest path may not be a “straight line,” depending on refractive index variations (or differences) and gravity (and the like)… but for short distances (as in these photographs), a straight line path will be accurate.

For further reading:

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~dmw/ast203/Lectures/Lect_04.pdf

http://serc.carleton.edu/sp/mnstep/activities/20128.html

http://www.fhsst.org/?q=node/7811

http://alex.edfac.usyd.edu.au/blp/Sample%20lessons/reasoning_light.htm

http://www.le.ac.uk/se/centres/sci/selfstudy/lac1.htm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_light_travel_in_a_straight_line_or_does_it_spread_out
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #170 on: Dec 10th, 2008, 7:07pm »

2D photo is a projection of a 3D reality. Therefore it is distorted. An example

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Parallel on the ground but not in the picture. You can not show the sun rays by drawing a straight line.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #171 on: Dec 10th, 2008, 8:00pm »

on Dec 10th, 2008, 7:07pm, ABCStore wrote:
2D photo is a projection of a 3D reality. Therefore it is distorted. An example


Beautiful, ABC. That's exactly what I was trying to tell him a few pages back. Precisely why a 2D representation of a 3D scenery is not always accurate.

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Marvin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #172 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 06:54am »

on Dec 10th, 2008, 7:07pm, ABCStore wrote:
2D photo is a projection of a 3D reality. Therefore it is distorted. An example

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Parallel on the ground but not in the picture. You can not show the sun rays by drawing a straight line.

ABC


on Dec 10th, 2008, 8:00pm, Latitude wrote:
Beautiful, ABC. That's exactly what I was trying to tell him a few pages back. Precisely why a 2D representation of a 3D scenery is not always accurate.




Okay gentlemen, I give up… what is distorted and inaccurate with this photo?

It has been Photoshopped, but I will assume it was done to provide the framing and adjustments.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #173 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 08:16am »

Wow,

I'm surprised the Sun angle is still being debated. There have already been multiple 3D simulations showing the exact position of the Sun.

When recreating the Raj PIC0016 in a simulation, you can use the telephone pole as the main measuring device to create the scene. Once you make the primitive shapes of the telephone pole, you can add a light source and that will create the direct shadows. You can then move the light source until the direct shadows on the pole match the image. Once this is done you have successfully found the direction of the Sun.

Here is an image that proves we already know the direction of the Sun:

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There is only 1 possible Sun direction that can create the shadows you see above to match Raj's image. This means we have the telephone pole and Sun position correct. There is no debate about it.

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The red line is the REAL Sun direction, which matches the pole. There is no debate about this.

For those that are hilariously saying 3D can not be accurately represented in 2D, all I have to say is that you couldn't be more wrong.

By showing 3 different views in 2D, you can represent a 3D scene. You need a top view, like above, and you need a side view, and a front or back view. This is how it works in 3D modeling software.

So here are the other views that show the Sun direction in 2D. They can be used together to represent the 3D scene:

User Image

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Please note: The red line is the REAL Sun direction, and is proven to be 100% correct. There is no other direction the Sun can be in, or it would not match the Raj image.

Once you have the telephone pole modeled, and the shadows perfectly match the image, you can place the drone in the 3D scene to match the position of the image. When you do that, you can see the MAJOR differences in lighting. These are NOT "ambient light differences" these are "DIRECT LIGHT" differences. All the DIRECT SHADOWS, are WRONG on the drone.

The green line in the images above represent the only possible direction the Sun must be in, in order to make the direct shadows on the drone match the image.

This is case closed. Nothing can disprove this.




« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 08:19am by neveleeleven » User IP Logged

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Marvin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #174 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 08:28am »

Welcome to the fray 11. wink
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #175 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 08:34am »

This following animation is made in 3D. The arrow is an actual 3D arrow made of a cylinder and a cone, in a 3D scene.

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The animation above was designed with the thought in mind that it is hard to represent a direction in 3D on a 2D image. This is why THE ARROW IS ONLY SHOWING THE COMPASS DIRECTION IN X/Y (2D) FORMAT. This means the arrow is not pointing at the Sun, it is only pointing in the compass direction of the Sun.

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The black arrow in the image above is representing this red arrow in the image below:
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Once again, the black arrow is representing the Azimuth, and not the Altitude. The red line in the image below is representing BOTH the Azimuth AND Altitude:
User Image

All the images above are made of actual 3D objects, and are not 2D.




« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 08:44am by neveleeleven » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #176 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 08:49am »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 08:28am, Marvin wrote:
Welcome to the fray 11. wink


Hey thanks Marvin. I'm looking forward to ending this hoax. wink
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #177 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 09:39am »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 06:54am, Marvin wrote:
Okay gentlemen, I give up… what is distorted and inaccurate with this photo?


Marvin, they are trying to insist that our Sun calculations are wrong because of "perspective", which is incorrect.

They are using "one-point perspective" images to disprove the Raj image that is NOT a "one-point perspective"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspective_(graphical)

It seems to me they need to learn how perspectives work, and the different types of perspective.

Then they need to learn how our 3D programs handle perspective, and that all the 3D calculations of the Sun direction include perspective.

Quote:
Computer graphics
3-D computer games and ray-tracers often use a modified version of perspective. Like the painter, the computer program is generally not concerned with every ray of light that is in a scene. Instead, the program simulates rays of light traveling backwards from the monitor (one for every pixel), and checks to see what it hits. In this way, the program does not have to compute the trajectories of millions of rays of light that pass from a light source, hit an object, and miss the viewer.

CAD software, and some computer games (especially games using 3-D polygons) use linear algebra, and in particular matrix multiplication, to create a sense of perspective. The scene is a set of points, and these points are projected to a plane (computer screen) in front of the view point (the viewer's eye). The problem of perspective is simply finding the corresponding coordinates on the plane corresponding to the points in the scene. By the theories of linear algebra, a matrix multiplication directly computes the desired coordinates, thus bypassing any descriptive geometry theorems used in perspective drawing.



They are completely wrong, I can easily show the rays of light with straight lines in that image:

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #178 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 10:22am »

1111,

I know you like to fight and argue but I only come here for discussion and civil debate.

The point was made that A (singular) 2D representation cannot depict a 3D scene. It's true that 3 different views (x,y,z) can give a basic representation. But the point was made that perspective (camera lense) can distort the view.

We are doing some additional shadow analysis and are finding that there are likely errors on both sides of this issue. We hope to soon put this to bed once and for all. Stay tuned.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #179 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 10:55am »

Excellent posts, 11! Like Marvin, I welcome you to the forum. wink

@ Latitude

There have been many issues debated and discussed concerning the drone photos. There have been many experts to expose the photos as fake. My question is have any experts in photography and/or CGI actually declared the photos as legitimate? With the money spent on employing Private Investigators for the better part of a year, have any funds been spent on acquiring a professional analysis to refute the claims of fakery?

Is there at least one expert in a pertinent field that has labeled these photos as authentic? It seems that any investigative research would first and foremost have the photos professionally analyzed to determine authenticity before spending thousands of dollars looking for anonymous witnesses and telephone poles.

Plenty of heavyweights have offered their analysis on these photos and all concluded fakery. Have any heavyweights declared the photos authentic? If no, why not?
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 10:58am by Jeddyhi » User IP Logged

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