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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 16045 times)
neveleeleven
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #180 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:12am »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 10:22am, Latitude wrote:
1111,

I know you like to fight and argue but I only come here for discussion and civil debate.


Nobody is fighting, only debating. But when you LIE, and make FALSE CLAIMS, and then IGNORE EVIDENCE, or straight PLAY DUMB, that's when things heat up.

You can believe in fake UFO's, but can you believe there are people in this world that can detect the b.s.?

on Dec 11th, 2008, 10:22am, Latitude wrote:
The point was made that A (singular) 2D representation cannot depict a 3D scene. It's true that 3 different views (x,y,z) can give a basic representation.


Your point is wrong, because it IS possible to represent 3D on a 2D surface. It all depends though on your definition of 3D. Obviously since everything is on a computer screen it is 2D, but why then is it called 3D modeling when you create CGI models? Its because the objects themselves are converted from 3D to 2D, so they are 2D representations of 3D.

What you are arguing about is a total distraction, and shows a complete lack of understanding about perspective.

Quote:
Perspective in the graphic arts, such as drawing, is an approximate representation, on a flat surface (such as paper)(2D), of an image as it is perceived by the eye. (3D)



on Dec 11th, 2008, 10:22am, Latitude wrote:
But the point was made that perspective (camera lense) can distort the view.


Luckily there are mathematical equations that can simulate camera lens distortion, and they are available in the 3D simulations. You can actually choose to simulate the curvature of lenses, and the FOV of the camera lens using the lensmakers equation. Actually in all of the 3D renders made to show the Sun direction, they all used a "simulated camera" to create the render. These simulated cameras already have lens curvature, but its so small you don't see it.


on Dec 11th, 2008, 10:22am, Latitude wrote:
We are doing some additional shadow analysis and are finding that there are likely errors on both sides of this issue. We hope to soon put this to bed once and for all. Stay tuned.


Stay tuned for what? It's already a proven hoax.

JUST ASK YOURSELF, HOW COME THE TELEPHONE WIRES, AND POWER LINES IN THE IMAGE DON'T CURVE? THE SUN RAYS RUN THE SAME AS THE WIRES, BUT NOT IN THE SAME DIRECTION. SO YOU ARE WRONG, THE SUN RAYS SHOULD NOT BE CURVED.

So you have nothing... if the wires are straight, the sun rays should be straight. heh

« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:18am by neveleeleven » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #181 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:16am »

Thank you Marv and welcome NewEleven, for areally clearing that up.
Now, as I understand, 2d can't be used to do something in 3d..or something like that..well..from my 'perspective'
2d 3d representations are used ALL the time in court, as when an airliner crashes and experts have to explain to a jury what may have gone down in causing a crash. Enitire scenes a re recreated from just the scattering of debris, known prior flight paths, and other information, direct and indirect, It may be just a "basic" representation of events, to some, but its a perfectly valid and extremely tool there and here, especially in this kind of case, to determine the most probable cause of an event or an objects behavior. In this case, the most probable conclusion being manipulation, and just as fatal to the drone case as a pilot error is in a plane crash.
I believe everyone knows about the lens distortions, from Raj camera, the same minolta model Numbers/Latitude has, and even ironically, I believe Tom. The level of lens distortion would already be a known variable, and factored in..
Its like saying we can't accept as real nor fake.because there is distortion of lens effect. like to make it, ok, inconclusive, and it has equal chance of being real..
Hmm... How disingenuous can one get?
Wrong!Those werent the only effects looked at, just by referring to Torvalds and all the other analysts like 11 11 there was also witness motion which violated physics, not just shadows, as I understood.
Its not just the shadow, its the entire scenario!
I want to see exactly..this error or alleged mishandling of any the analysis by Marvin, or kris, or Torvald, or 1111 , the whole crew.. done with input from both camps, not just one...that keeps being put forth, that is supposed to give the drone a new lease on life. rolleyes
I still see a corpse.
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:23am by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #182 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:27am »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 10:22am, Latitude wrote:
1111,

The point was made that A (singular) 2D representation cannot depict a 3D scene. It's true that 3 different views (x,y,z) can give a basic representation. But the point was made that perspective (camera lense) can distort the view.

We are doing some additional shadow analysis and are finding that there are likely errors on both sides of this issue. We hope to soon put this to bed once and for all. Stay tuned.




Okay, let’s take this one step at a time:

Quote:
The point was made that A (singular) 2D representation cannot depict a 3D scene.


If you believe this to be true, then I do not think you understand issues of perception and appearance.

Try this experiment.

Look at something near you. I assume you have normal vision in both eyes and that you would agree you are seeing in 3D.

Continue to look… but cover one eye and do not move. You have just simulated a photo of the scene since you are now observing in “2D.” Did the laws of physics just change? Are things distorted, such as the “line of travel” for light sources? Did your sight just become inaccurate when seeing shadows? They look the same to me. grin

Lat, for some reason I just continue to not be able to follow your logic:

Quote:
We are doing some additional shadow analysis and are finding that there are likely errors on both sides of this issue.


To say (in the same statement) that a 2D image cannot depict a 3D scene and yet you can do shadow analysis from 2D images… yet, this is what has been done. But I do look forward to any analysis you come up with.



By the way 11, nice work!


Hi Jedd! It is great to have you here, welcome aboard!
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:29am by Marvin » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #183 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:44am »

Hey Jed,

Do you know of any photo analysts who use an unbiased, fool proof and scientific method? One that does not depend on judgement calls and guesses? The truth is there are none. Technology is progressing in that area. I did have an email exchange with a high level forensic scientist in the field who has been part of a leading edge development of a software program that does what we want but he informed me that it is still a work in progress and nowhere near complete. I did ask him if he could check the drone photos but he declined saying that at this point the tech does not exist to give a definite answer. His personal opinion? They could be real.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #184 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 11:50am »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 11:12am, neveleeleven wrote:
Nobody is fighting, only debating. But when you LIE, and make FALSE CLAIMS, and then IGNORE EVIDENCE, or straight PLAY DUMB, that's when things heat up.


I can't have a civil discussion with you. It's out of the question. You are abrasive and insulting. Maybe you don't mean it but that is the way it comes across.



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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #185 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 12:17pm »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 11:50am, Latitude wrote:
I can't have a civil discussion with you. It's out of the question.


Basically that means you lost the debate because you forfeit. Thanks for trying. rolleyes



on Dec 10th, 2008, 09:38am, ABCStore wrote:
On these photos sunlight should not be represented as straight lines, it should be slightly curved.

IMHO

ABC


Then why are the power lines and telephone wires so straight in the image? That pretty much proves your opinion wrong.

Are you trying to say that electrical wires are more straight then sun rays?

-edit add-

Hey Jedd! Hey TeachersPet! Thanks.
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 12:19pm by neveleeleven » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #186 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 12:38pm »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 11:44am, Latitude wrote:
Hey Jed,

Do you know of any photo analysts who use an unbiased, fool proof and scientific method? One that does not depend on judgement calls and guesses? The truth is there are none.


That kind of sounds like refusal to accept the verdict. The truth is that numerous experts have condemned the photos as fake and gave reasons why. Even the Ufo Hunters had their doubts as to authenticity. I simply want to know how the lack of at least one expert that validates the photos is explained away. The lack of such expert testimony should be viewed as a huge hole in any claim or thought of a drone reality.

Quote:
Technology is progressing in that area. I did have an email exchange with a high level forensic scientist in the field who has been part of a leading edge development of a software program that does what we want but he informed me that it is still a work in progress and nowhere near complete. I did ask him if he could check the drone photos but he declined saying that at this point the tech does not exist to give a definite answer.


Are you speaking of Hany Farid? He charges $200 an hour for his analysis.


Quote:
His personal opinion? They could be real.


Which is your second hand testimony. "They could be real" is a pale offering to the numerous expert opinion and analysis that has been given on the drone subject.

Why not pay for expert image analysis which would be much cheaper than having two men explore central California. Or maybe offer the photos to a local University for examination? Is the possibility of not being able to find a supporting analysis preventing these measures from be undertaken? Surely, if the drone photos have any merit, then at least one expert can go on record as supporting their authenticity. This would be a huge step forward in support of the drones being real. The lack of supporting expert testimony has been a knife in the heart of the drone case since day one. It causes those that doubt the drone case to wonder why those that support it do not ask for, or need any outside independent analysis to confirm authenticity. It is almost as if the photos, which are sharp and clear, do not need authentication just because they are sharp and clear. wink

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #187 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:00pm »

[quote author=Latitude link=board=drone&num=1223123924&start=183#12 date=1229017469 His personal opinion? They could be real.

[/quote]

Is this on record somewhere? Do you have a name of this expert or is this just hearsay from another person that does not exsist?
Did the PIs ever have an expert look at the photos?
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:20pm by Radi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #188 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:08pm »

laughLOL, he knows of one guy that said "It could be real". A guy who needs software to test images...

...that's comedy.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #189 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:20pm »

on Dec 11th, 2008, 11:44am, Latitude wrote:
Hey Jed,

Do you know of any photo analysts who use an unbiased, fool proof and scientific method? One that does not depend on judgement calls and guesses? The truth is there are none. Technology is progressing in that area. I did have an email exchange with a high level forensic scientist in the field who has been part of a leading edge development of a software program that does what we want but he informed me that it is still a work in progress and nowhere near complete. I did ask him if he could check the drone photos but he declined saying that at this point the tech does not exist to give a definite answer. His personal opinion? They could be real.



Heres another expert service, maybe the PIs know these people since they are in California...
http://www.forimag.com/
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #190 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 1:29pm »

Hi Radi.

I'm not sure that expert forensic imaging consultants are wanted or needed by those that push a drone reality. The resulting conclusion by such a firm may be contradictory to a drone reality. Therefore undesireable by the pro-drone crowd.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #191 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 2:31pm »

Welcome Jeddy!, Precisely the point. They will not take it to anyone like that, and yet that is the very type of person required in matters of proof, particularly the one with the burden.
I am confused here though, since when was Lat assigned as the go between between Farid and Drt.
I can see 11A, or SPF, OTF..but why the least"expert" of them all?, no offense intended.
It was I who made contact with Farid and they have had the info since april or may of 2008.
They will not do it. Repeat, they will not do it.And this expert can work with scans. I even suggested a collection among ALL of us, to help get the truth..at OMF..it fell on deaf ears, but it was DOABLE
I don't think for one second Farid ever said it could be real.
I want to see that. I havent seen that mentioned anywhere.Nothing was ever said about that.
So it could be real (leaving out I guess..it might not)without an analysis is what he ran with? This is just unbelievable..
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Something is amiss and troublesome..here, as the DRT has never said anything about a shortage of money, yet it is said the PIs are on the case ad Lat is right in the area. Maybe he can tell us how much has been paid out so far, but not where a reasonable person would take it, before they even touch or hire a PI.

But he , Lat, is here, ready and willing to discuss civilly, but dishonestly if not just crazilly..
A civil discussion involves honesty on both sides, and the willingness to accept..that you can be wrong.
I am sure We are get everything but that here.
« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 2:36pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #192 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:05pm »

Bugs and Daffy... debate on the Drones - click on me
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #193 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:08pm »

Hi TP!

I also contacted Mr. Farid earlier this year, seeking information on special plugins for ImageJ. I was taken aback by his prices but thought that the DRT, already spending money on PI's, would possibly get this analysis if only to help further the possibility of a drone reality. They never did.

I find it a bit odd that the DRT, or more specifically whoever is funding the PI's, would pay out that kind of money to private detectives without first seeking a professional analysis and determination on the drone photos. A seal of approval that the photos appear to be legitimate would be quite a feather in the drone cap. And a justification that Private Investigators are indeed warranted.

If I had the monetary resources and the same inclination to investigate this case as deeply as the DRT, I certainly would have sought justification to hire PI's before hiring them. Unless I was seeking to use the PI's strictly for sensationalism.

Farid's quote of 20 hours at $200 an hour is $4000. I wonder how much the PI's have been paid?



« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:14pm by Jeddyhi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #194 on: Dec 11th, 2008, 3:20pm »

Let's assume for a moment that wider angle situation around pic16 looks like this:

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Would you still use parallel lines to represent rays of light from the sun in PIC0016 in this case?
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