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DrStern
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #30 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 4:30pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 4:16pm, Marvin wrote:
If you are interesting in ROI analysis, then I understand your desire to see three analysis... but considering some of this software is leased by the year (at $25,000 per year), I personally do not have the deep pockets for such a thing.

While people have offered to help pay for such an analysis... the interest has not be all that high to get it done (I can only speculate that is more fun to keep the myth alive than to place another nail in the coffin). With the Drone and Isaac photos, we have a number of "dead" bodies (and the objective evidence to show they are “dead”)... but there are those who are not willing to go to the visitation, much less the funeral.


I understand, Marvin. I was not aware of your capabilities.

Not to worry, I'll see what I myself can come up with, now I want the truth to this enigma, be it true or not. It may take me a while, but so be it. smiley

Cheers wink

DrStern
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #31 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 5:22pm »

cheers smiley
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2008, 5:24pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #32 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 6:27pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 4:30pm, DrStern wrote:
I understand, Marvin. I was not aware of your capabilities.

Not to worry, I'll see what I myself can come up with, now I want the truth to this enigma, be it true or not. It may take me a while, but so be it. smiley

Cheers wink

DrStern



Doc,

Don't miss understand Lat and I when we play... and we have been doing this along time (truly Lat, although we disagree... I see you as an old friend that helps to keep us thinking and challenged).

It is my opinion there has been enough evidence found to seriously place the veracity of the whole BB Drone story and photos (and Isaac) into grave doubt (to reasonable folks, it has been proven within a reasonable doubt). Truly, the preponderance of the evidence clearly has shifted the weight or burden of proof to anyone that claims there is or maybe some truth to the story. Anyone that claims there is no evidence to prove the situation one way or the other is either ignorant of the facts and evidence… or is being intellectually dishonest. There is plenty of evidence, but there has been a “shell game” played with the interpretation of that evidence. When being accommodating to the “what ifs” and the “it may be possibles,” does the remote series of unlikely events fall into place for the BB Drones to “remotely” be a real event.

If one rationally weights the odds… if it is a 50:50 or 1:1,000,000, does it begin to make some tangible sense that a fifty-fifty shot is more likely to be true than a one shot in a million. The weight of all proof has all of the physical and tangible evidence falling to the side of this affair being a hoax. There is zero evidence to support the reality of the photos, the stories or the alleged witnesses. The facts, when researched, have gone on to support deception, not truth.

The missing piece in this equation is the absence of any and all witnesses. The photos (even if nothing could be found to be wrong with them) make poor witnesses on their own accord. One cannot cross examine or ask questions of a photo, especially photos with an untraceable line of custody. It is difficult to believe that all of the reported witnesses have gone silent… that the people they would have spoke to, have never gone public. Their silence is as deafening as it is unbelievable.

In the end, you will have to follow your heart, DrStern… for a enlightened heart will always guide you to the truth.

BTW, it is good to see you posting again!
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #33 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 6:37pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 6:27pm, Marvin wrote:
Doc,

Don't miss understand Lat and I when we play... and we have been doing this along time (truly Lat, although we disagree... I see you as an old friend that helps to keep us thinking and challenged).

Marvin,

on Oct 26th, 2008, 4:10pm, DrDil wrote:
Besides, as Lat knows I don’t mind ‘going the extra mile' for him!! grin

on Oct 26th, 2008, 4:28pm, Latitude wrote:
smiley Thanks, Dr Dill. I take it as a complement. Plus it makes it that much more fun.

Cheers to you wink


(Does Mr Understand know?! laugh)

Cheers.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #34 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 3:23pm, Marvin wrote:
I think you are reading more into my post than I placed there Lat. I was just responding to a question with a question.

Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see.

Quote:
So, if you want to point out the obvious, this is objective evidence or proof. It is proof the photo was washed through Photoshop.

It's only proof that photoshop was used at some point. It is unknown what it was used for. Jpeg snoop cannot determine that. Nobody has ever proved what it was used for.

Quote:
Since Photoshop can be a bit pricey, I would have to assume people do not go out drop this kind of cash just to download photos for their camera (isn’t that software included with the camera?). So if they are not buying it to download photos, what are they using Photoshop for?

Ah ha! Now we get to the crux of why you posted the jpeg snoop, to cast doubt on the pics. My suspicion was correct!

Quote:
It is a glaring red flag that has to be examined and explained (and not speculated as meaningless).

But it could be meaningless. It could be any number of things. We may never know why. But how many pics on flickr of a girlfriend that has a PS tag in it? Are those fake girlfriends?

Whenever somebody mentions the PS tag in the Raj pics they always forget that the Stephen pics have no PS tags. Kind of kills the whole argument doesn't it? (also the Tahoe pics)

Quote:
Oh, and not to mention that the Raj drones have the shadow fingerprints of being CGI with a secondary sun source (which have been documented).

Possibly faulty conclusions based on faulty data and faulty skills. It's not an easy task. CGI artists have been trying to replicate reality since the advent of the genre. Some hit the mark better than others. To claim that any given geek with access to cgi software should be able to easily replicate the photos is over simplifying it.

Quote:
Other than that, you are correct… the Photoshop tag does not prove anything. wink

So in the end we do agree. We just took different routes to get there. smiley

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #35 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 8:16pm »

TIS NICE TO SEE THE TEAM SPIRIT ALIVE AND WELL ON THIS TOPIC... grin
SHALOM...ZETAR grin
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #36 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 9:40pm »

Yeah, it's like visiting a museum....it never changes. You guys are going to argue this til the end of eternity.

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #37 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 9:49pm »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm, Latitude wrote:
It's only proof that photoshop was used at some point. It is unknown what it was used for. Jpeg snoop cannot determine that. Nobody has ever proved what it was used for.


While it is true, if you just look at this one, single piece of evidence (removed from all other evidence and ignoring anything else that has been learned)… one can make the argument of innocence and ignorance that the Photoshop tag does not point to deception. But we know Photoshop was not used to play ping-pong, to put gasoline in a car or to make a flower garden. What can Photoshop be used for? Oh, I know… as a $650 to $1000 camera downloader program… good call. wink


on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm, Latitude wrote:
Ah ha! Now we get to the crux of why you posted the jpeg snoop, to cast doubt on the pics. My suspicion was correct!


Actually, that was not the intent… it was a demonstration that it can be detected. Do you think we should be suspicious? Are you saying that the detection does cast doubt? Or are you just a suspicious guy like me? wink


on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm, Latitude wrote:
But it could be meaningless. It could be any number of things. We may never know why. But how many pics on flickr of a girlfriend that has a PS tag in it? Are those fake girlfriends?


The only fake girlfriends I’ve ever seen had Adam & Eve tags, plastic valves and required a bicycle pump to inflate… I think you’re safe.


on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm, Latitude wrote:
Whenever somebody mentions the PS tag in the Raj pics they always forget that the Stephen pics have no PS tags. Kind of kills the whole argument doesn't it? (also the Tahoe pics).


I do not recall bring up the Stephen and Tahoe pics being in this discussion. So it may kill someone’s argument… but it must be on a different post.

There has to be more than one way to “skin a cat” and Snoop does not have all of the possible different software built in for detection. It is constantly being updated… much like anti-spyware. Ah the pleasures of future releases.


on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm, Latitude wrote:
Possibly faulty conclusions based on faulty data and faulty skills. It's not an easy task. CGI artists have been trying to replicate reality since the advent of the genre. Some hit the mark better than others. To claim that any given geek with access to cgi software should be able to easily replicate the photos is over simplifying it.


"Possibly faulty conclusions?"

What is possibly?

What is the fault?

Much opportunity has been afforded to opposing evidence… but none has been given, the only thing that has been used to point to faulty conclusions are opinions and “what ifs.” I saw the evidence, it is hard core and indisputable. Take that “possibly faulty” evidence to a well known and respected professional… let’s see which side of “faulty” they will come down on. There is zero doubt in my mind (from my professional experience in perception and appearance).


on Nov 21st, 2008, 7:46pm, Latitude wrote:
So in the end we do agree. We just took different routes to get there. smiley


Yes, in the end (as usual), we agree to disagree. But that is why I like you Lat… you keep me on my toes. wink
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #38 on: Nov 21st, 2008, 11:34pm »

Hi everyone.

Very interesting article on the Drones and Cameras.

Seems to me that to prove anything these days you have to take the Camera direct to a specialist to decide whether or not you have faked the photo. You dare not download to your Computer, immediately its classified as fake.

All of us have a different photo program, I use Corel
what difference does it mean which program is used?

Problem with this article is it now being used as a debating session and the real question has been lost.






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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #39 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 12:18am »

on Nov 21st, 2008, 11:34pm, aussiegrail wrote:
Hi everyone.

Very interesting article on the Drones and Cameras.

Seems to me that to prove anything these days you have to take the Camera direct to a specialist to decide whether or not you have faked the photo. You dare not download to your Computer, immediately its classified as fake.
All of us have a different photo program, I use Corel
what difference does it mean which program is used?

Problem with this article is it now being used as a debating session and the real question has been lost.


Really? where did you see that stated anywhere in that manner?
Before we go in ad nauseum circles here which is what I see happening, I just looked at the 27000 posts at OMF, the 7900 posts at at ATs and the 5000 plus posts here, and a years work, I havent seen that kind of premature conclusion at all.
If you go here
http://lucianarchy.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=cali1&action=display&thread=3544
you will see the analysis that was done, hardly the work of people who pre judged it fake, but tampered with they were. even attemps to change the model of the original camera,.and in another instance, defied the laws of physics..things that just Don't happen by themselves..'
Well informed opinions..not knee jerk reactions..as you seem to imply, forgive me if I'm wrong or misunderstood, , ..not giving the case a chance merely because it was download to not just one but several computers..
Enough was gleened from this case that a workshop how to detect hoaxes was done by a a CGI and models expert at last years Mufon Conference, and who complimented the thorough work of both camps, done by the people in that link. hardly a debunking agency, in fact, its an advocacy org for ufos .
or if you want to see the issues as to both pictures and witnesses in a very balanced and concise manner you can go here
http://www.dronehoax.com/
or here for a very very pro real.
http://www.droneteam.com
and compare..
A real question to me now is why did the people who vigorously promoted this "Unsolved Mystery" ,Earthfiles Linda M Howe, who who still holds the "real evidence" and remaining photos, and who disingenuously forgot to mention Isaac in a c2c broadcast on UFO classified documments, and C2C George Noory, and Communion Hall of fame Whitley Strieber fail to include it on their Sci Fi Channel Debut the other night. People who have gone on record saying "real", championing the cause, calling for new witnesses, and one even dreaming one up in an early morning vision and heralding a new era..
Alas.Not an honorable mention, not a vowel, consonant, or dipthong, not a whimper, .not even a peep. What motive can we ascribe to that deafening silence on the matter?

Just what other question did we lose track or sight of ?
Thank you
smiley


« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:28am by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #40 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:16am »

HEY TEACHERSPET,
NO QUESTION ABOUT IT...SOME OF THE MOST CREATIVE ,BRILLIANT, DETERMINED, AND ACADEMICALLY ACOMPLISHED INDIVIDUALS SUNK THEIR TEETH AND TIME INTO THIS SAGA OF UFOLOGY...THE TRAGEDY IS THE DEVISIVENESS WHICH RESULTED ALTHOUGH I SEE MANY REACHING OUT WHOM REALISE THE BUMPS IN THE ROAD IN ANY PHENOMENA AND THEY ARE BETTER OFF WITH THE INTERACTIONS OF THOSE MINDS THAN HAD THEY NOT ENCOUNTERED AT ALL...

THE FLAGS FLYING IN THIS ARE DIVIDED INTO TWO CAMPS...THE SAD ASPECT IN MY MIND IS THAT IT CAN'T BE ONE FLAG ...FOR THE TRUTH...WHICH HERETOFORE HAS BEEN AND ELUSIVE CRITTER grin...

NONETHELESS,...THE DEBATE HAS BEEN LIVELY.

MY SIDELINES OBSERVATION PLACES MUCH OF THE RESPONSIBILTY IN THE DEVISIVENESS AT THE FEET OF "LMH" AND HER REFUSAL TO RELEASE SPECIFIC PHOTOS...IN LIEU OF THAT NOT COMING TO PASS SOME DYNAMIC INVESTIGATIVE WORK HAS TAKEN PLACE WHICH SHOULD BE CREDITED FOR THEIR HARD WORK...

IT IS A FACT THAT THE MILITARY HAS DRONES WHICH ATTACH TO ELECTRICAL WIRES AND RECHARGE...THEY MORPH TO LOOK AS SOMETHING ELSE WHILE DOING SO...I HAVE OFTEN THOUGHT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME COLLUSION WITH THEIR DRONE PROGRAM AS A COVER,DISTRACTION,BAIT AND SWITCH TO FURTHER SOMETHING MORE TERRESTRIAL THAN EXTRATERESSTRIAL...

WELL UNTIL THE NEXT PHOTOS OR SIGHTING...THIS IS THE NATURE OF THE BEAST...

SHALOM...ZETAR
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #41 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:40am »

Hi Zetar! yes the military does have some wonderful and yet frightening things, at the nano level especially..
and even DNA specic weapons, I understand, You know, Darpa funded that organic neural setup at Mason University over 3 years ago..to interface with all these cameras, and learn behaviour..
I hope it does not catch a cold..I hate to see what happens when it sneezes..
This I think,,that we come up with more clever things than the ET..

As for Linda..perhaps she has better luck with the perpetual motion rock. You know that Pet rocks were quite the rage in the US like the hoola hoop and chi-chia plants..cheesy

smiley


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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #42 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 10:34am »

on Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:16am, ZETAR wrote:
THE FLAGS FLYING IN THIS ARE DIVIDED INTO TWO CAMPS...THE SAD ASPECT IN MY MIND IS THAT IT CAN'T BE ONE FLAG ...FOR THE TRUTH...WHICH HERETOFORE HAS BEEN AND ELUSIVE CRITTER grin...

NONETHELESS,...THE DEBATE HAS BEEN LIVELY.


Truth is a funny thing. What one culture holds to be true, maybe discarded by another culture as erroneous. Individual people and believes are not much different and can vary due to personal experience and the like.

What I am interested in, is fact and object evidence. They are the foundations of “Western thought” when describing the concept of truth.

This maybe an insight into the divisions you are seeing when “camps” are seeking the “truth.”

on Nov 22nd, 2008, 01:16am, ZETAR wrote:
MY SIDELINES OBSERVATION PLACES MUCH OF THE RESPONSIBILTY IN THE DEVISIVENESS AT THE FEET OF "LMH" AND HER REFUSAL TO RELEASE SPECIFIC PHOTOS...IN LIEU OF THAT NOT COMING TO PASS SOME DYNAMIC INVESTIGATIVE WORK HAS TAKEN PLACE WHICH SHOULD BE CREDITED FOR THEIR HARD WORK...


Personally, I think we need to move beyond this blame game. It is a side track to the “truth.”

We have enough objective evidence and investigation to draw a conclusion. More anonymous photos, more anonymous explanations by phone, email or on a forum has not and will not add credence to the Drone case. The only missing piece to the evidence “story” is a witness.

You cannot take photographs and a story to court, you need a “body” or person. Without the person (in this case, the witnesses)… you don’t have a case. One can debate fake photos all day long as being real... to the uninformed, it is just an endless debate that has tempting arguments on both sides. But without the person who took the photos, in today’s world of CGI and Photoshop, the photos alone are meaningless.

Since we do not have any of the myriad of witnesses, all we can do is to check the stories against the photos… which have been done. What do we discover? Deception.

Chad claimed he took his photos in Bakersfield… as supported by the DRT, the photos were actual taken near San Jose (near the Big Basin area). That is deception.

Raj claimed to have taken his photos in Capitola… but the street light in one of the photos does not exist in Capitola. Hmmm, another deception.

Ty claims the Drone he and his bicycle friends watched (and photographed) just basically hovered in one spot, even as he took photos. But on examination of the photos, there is a point where the Drone appears to quickly approach him (it did not just stay on one spot). How could he not remember that? More deception? The list goes on and on.

With the lack of history for the line of custody of all photos, Photoshop tags, evidence of tampering and CGI… How does one sustain the “truth” and veracity of the Big Basin Drone as the only solution in the face of the known facts and evidence?

It would seem to me, the burden of proof solely falls on anyone claiming reality in this case... but without a witness, LOL.


Peace
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #43 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 2:35pm »

on Nov 22nd, 2008, 10:34am, Marvin wrote:
We have enough objective evidence and investigation to draw a conclusion. More anonymous photos, more anonymous explanations by phone, email or on a forum has not and will not add credence to the Drone case. The only missing piece to the evidence “story” is a witness.

You cannot take photographs and a story to court, you need a “body” or person. Without the person (in this case, the witnesses)… you don’t have a case. One can debate fake photos all day long as being real... to the uninformed, it is just an endless debate that has tempting arguments on both sides. But without the person who took the photos, in today’s world of CGI and Photoshop, the photos alone are meaningless.
Yes but one thing we have learned through not only the drone case but almost all of ufology is that only one side is the safe and provable... and for a good reason. If a photo witness did come forward with beyond a shadow of a doubt proof it would mean the end of the world as we know it. This is why it cannot happen. It will never be allowed. If it did happen by some mistake or freak happenstance (drones?) it would be very possible that history itself would need to be fixed and that is likely what would happen.

Quote:
Since we do not have any of the myriad of witnesses, all we can do is to check the stories against the photos… which have been done. What do we discover? Deception.
I believe this is very true, but for a good reason, anonymity. When you have dangerous information why stick your neck out? How will it profit you?

Quote:
Chad claimed he took his photos in Bakersfield… as supported by the DRT, the photos were actual taken near San Jose (near the Big Basin area). That is deception.
False. Chad never claimed to have taken the pics in Bakersfield.

Quote:
Raj claimed to have taken his photos in Capitola… but the street light in one of the photos does not exist in Capitola. Hmmm, another deception.
False again. There is no proof it does not exist in Capitola.

Quote:
Ty claims the Drone he and his bicycle friends watched (and photographed) just basically hovered in one spot, even as he took photos. But on examination of the photos, there is a point where the Drone appears to quickly approach him (it did not just stay on one spot). How could he not remember that? More deception? The list goes on and on.
False again. From the Ty letter: Quote:
It might have been moving a little too, but it was hard to tell from our location. For the most part it was stationary.
That was before the pics were taken. Then when the 12 pics were taken: Quote:
It was moving very slowly as well but not much activity.




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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #44 on: Nov 22nd, 2008, 4:59pm »

I believe this is very true, but for a good reason, anonymity. When you have dangerous information why stick your neck out? How will it profit you?
THE IDEA MAY BE "DANGEROUS, ANALYSIS OF THE NARRATIVES AND PIX SHOWED NOTHING DANGEROUS..THATS YOUR OPINION UNLESS YOU KNOW SOMETHING WE DON'T
False. Chad never claimed to have taken the pics in Bakersfield.
No Linda Did, where is Linda


False again. There is no proof it does not exist in Capitola.Yes there is, pi stated at DRT they could not find it, this SEASONED PIS WITH CONNECTIONS with even Tom Vance, a PSE&G Man..and months of searching.MISLEADING AND DECEPTIVE.
False again. From the Ty letter:That was before the pics were taken. Then when the 12 pics were taken:
AGAIN, LINDAS PIX WOULKD REVEAL THAT WOULD IT NOT? WE HAVE ONE AND IT MOVED BIG TIME BUT ONE WAS ENOUGH TO TRASH THEMDECEPTION AND DISTORTION OF FACTS

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HECK EVEN THE WEBMASTER OF TK LIVES IN SAME AREA OUTLINED.
RAJMAN LEAD WAS TRACED TO BETWEEN C AND E ON THE MAP at Elan Village again, San Jose
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NICE COINCIDENCE THERE TOO, NOTHING EVER WAS AGAIN AFTER I GAVE THE PHONE NUMBER TO A DRT MEMBER

From a little higher up to include Lake tahoe,
it looks even more comical
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WHO IS KIDDING WHO HERE!
and as you were named by a reliable source, as the person suggesting on a skype call with your DRT colleagues to hog the Drone matter and make it a DRT exclusive , as things were not going well at OMF, it doesn't surprise me in the least you are here now.just .like Rutter is at OM tryng to rejuvenate the "DR"Reed hoax , the same sorry story. Whether for money, glory, or just something to do,
Your suggestion was well taken, the DRT does have the market cornered on this..and thats the way it should be,
when wishes come true.
« Last Edit: Nov 22nd, 2008, 6:40pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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