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 sticky  Author  Topic: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Truth  (Read 26037 times)
Katterfelto
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #825 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 12:41pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 12:20pm, Jeddyhi wrote:
Here is a link to Jake's posts at OM. He makes his point starting on that page and makes more posts over the next few pages. It is an interesting read and an early confirmation of the DOF problems you bring up.


Thanks for that link. There are so many old discussions it's almost impossible to find specific topics. Interesting how things get revisited and it's often good to review early thoughts.

I am expecting the counter argument on the Chad image to be that the sun is coming from the other direction. rolleyes
I think I saw that explanation someplace but can't recall exactly where.
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TeachersPet
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #826 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 12:42pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 12:21pm, elevenaugust wrote:
Thank you very much for these infos 1111, that will be useful later.
Anyway, I see that you give your conclusions before your analysis.
Interesting.
And can't wait to see the scientific analysis!! (without using neither EXIFs datas that can be faked, of course nor using any image editor)


At least, one progress: we are not anymore the hoaxers!!




what kind of backhanded compliment is that?!!..Thanking and then slapping with conclusion before analysis..Useful Later?This guy has put forth tons of analysis and then conclusion..he didn't even need this..but this is irrefutable.. This is called going the extra mile..That analasys was scientific . The truth will always appear Biased againsst the false..because they are opposites..
You want a nice convenient grey area..mixed lies and truth..No can do here.
You want a friendly place to go to for lies freely and where your minds are really made up..then go where you are going on your signature.
have a nice day.

@ I borrowed and posted over at ATS nevereleven
Hope its ok...my library too..smiley
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 12:49pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

Double Nought Spy
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #827 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 12:55pm »

As Stan Friedman so often and astutely points out, some people have the attitude of "Don't bother me with facts, my mind is made up." Is the DRT in possession of a single checkable fact that supports their conclusion that the drones are real? I mean that they can reveal to us unwashed masses, of course.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #828 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 11:31am, neveleeleven wrote:
Uh WHAThuh! Do you even understand my argument?

Perfectly thanks, but either I badly explained myself or you too don't understand my arguments.
I underlined for you the interesting parts. Under those crafts you can see the same kind of light. According to your analysis, there should be slight silhouetting because of back lighting with a lighter background also on these crafts, but there's not.
Strange, hmm?
Are you sure that vegetation and dirt road can't reflect sun and have any albedo?

User Image

on Jan 4th, 2009, 11:31am, neveleeleven wrote:
User Image

...outlined in red is specular highlights! These highlights should NOT exist, because the Sun is in the opposite direction of the highlights!. Another sign of fake lighting!

You made a mistake on three of the five areas you outlined:
User Image
I wonder who is doing disinfomation?? Or maybe just a mistake?

on Jan 4th, 2009, 11:31am, neveleeleven wrote:
The problem is, the arm that goes behind the tree should be more out of focus. Since the camera can only focus on one spot, everything closer and everything further away should be slightly out of focus. Since the main body of the drone appears focused, and the trees under it appear slightly out of focus, this means the drone arm that goes behind the tree should be half focused and half out of focus, because the arm is extending away from the camera. So the arm should get more out of focus the further away from the camera it is. You may not see it as clearly as I do, you have to look close and notice slight differences, but the depth of field is horribly wrong!

I know all of this and see where you are going from.
You're maybe right (it's not obvious due to the overexposure), but I really would like to see a real analysis that can confirm it or not, including:
- Drone tilting measurements facing more or less the camera
- Drone size estimation
- Distance estimation.
.....
Oh! I forgot, you want to see the disinformation running first....

Quote:
You failed!

Héhé!! You'll have to wait a little more.
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:12pm by elevenaugust » User IP Logged

IPACO, the new tool for photo and video analysis is on-line ! www.ipaco.fr
TeachersPet
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #829 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:16pm »

August Please don't let the door hit you on the way out..
Thank you..

@Katt Jedd Double..that is a fascinating link..make sure you look at bottom to make sure the edit date is old or recent..under a players name.
smiley

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #830 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:28pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:16pm, TeachersPet wrote:
August Please don't let the door hit you on the way out..
Thank you..

@Katt Jedd Double..that is a fascinating link..make sure you look at bottom to make sure the edit date is old or recent..under a players name.
smiley



Ah, that was a great time! There was still a chance, for all we knew, that the photos were real. That is why we were all there, after all. I kept seeing references to the analysis going on at OMF, a place I had not heard of, and the references said it looked like the pictures were real. That was very exciting, at least for a while. I guess I can see why some people can't bring themselves to give it up, but come on, this is reality.
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elevenaugust
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #831 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:29pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 11:12am, murnut wrote:
Why?

Some new infos. Can't say more, Mur sorry.
I know you will understand.
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:29pm by elevenaugust » User IP Logged

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TeachersPet
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #832 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:40pm »

It can't be new since we have been hearing the same line for quite a while now.

@double, Those indeed were the greatest of times..
I liked the Raj and Chad IP close proximity catch which seemed to have faded suddenly.."explained away" ...

But now We say the same thing here this man said there in another place and time.
not too long ago..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EbE_9MdASDE
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 1:50pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #833 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:02pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:40pm, TeachersPet wrote:
It can't be new since we have been hearing the same line for quite a while now.

@double, Those indeed were the greatest of times..
I liked the Raj and Chad IP close proximity catch which seemed to have faded suddenly.."explained away" ...

But now We say the same thing here this man said there in another place and time.
not too long ago..
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EbE_9MdASDE


Nice link! That was another great time. Awesome, really. I don't think anyone who didn't live through those times will ever know what it was like to turn on the tv and watch people partying on the wall, knocking holes in it, and generally expressing the relief we all felt. Sometimes I have to remind myself that I grew up knowing we could be blasted into dust at any second. It's still a scary world, but nothing like it was then.
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #834 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:07pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:29pm, elevenaugust wrote:
Some new infos. Can't say more, Mur sorry.
I know you will understand.



Interesting
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TeachersPet
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #835 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:12pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 2:02pm, Double Nought Spy wrote:
Nice link! That was another great time. Awesome, really. I don't think anyone who didn't live through those times will ever know what it was like to turn on the tv and watch people partying on the wall, knocking holes in it, and generally expressing the relief we all felt. Sometimes I have to remind myself that I grew up knowing we could be blasted into dust at any second. It's still a scary world, but nothing like it was then.

Oh Man, It was scary, we had to practice regular drills going underneath desks.
in case of Abombs..I doubt that would stopped shockwave going and coming back..unless you were way out on the outskirts..
Somebody must have thought it was quite doable..
Gee.
@mur, I'll tell what the new info is, the new info is 11 11 s info thats what new...you bet they need more time for that one.
you understand smiley

« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:22pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

tommi01
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #836 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:33pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 10:30am, neveleeleven wrote:
Real image experts know that you can NOT just run functions in an image editor and uncover any data. All you are doing is manipulating the current data.


According to some those functions are used to evaluate the data, not manipulate or uncover but evaluate.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/farid/research/tampering.html
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #837 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:36pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm, elevenaugust wrote:
Perfectly thanks, but either I badly explained myself or you too don't understand my arguments.
I underlined for you the interesting parts.

User Image

Under those crafts you can see the same kind of light. According to your analysis, there should be slight silhouetting because of back lighting with a lighter background also on these crafts, but there's not.
Strange, hmm?


No, not strange, all of your outlined examples are irrelevant. None of your outlined examples have a white background, with the Sun behind it! Look at the image again:

User Image

Do you see how the sky behind the drone is almost pure white? Do you see the light source BEHIND the drone? The clouds are reflecting light (the color white does that), straight from the Sun, directly behind the drone. None of your examples have a light source behind the object, all you have is the dim sky. The only one that comes close is that jet with the white clouds, but even that isn't as bright as the drone image.

Also, all but one of your examples is at least 100 feet in the air. The drone in the Chad image is skimming the tree tops, close to the ground. None of your examples are relevant.



on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm, elevenaugust wrote:
Are you sure that vegetation and dirt road can't reflect sun and have any albedo?


I never said they cant reflect the Sun. But I am sure that vegetation and a dirt road can NOT create specular highlights on the drone, no matter how shiny the veg. and dirt is.

Veg. and dirt reflects light, yes, but its not focused, is not strong, and the further away from the dirt and vegetation the object is, the less light that will hit the object. It is the definition of ambient light. Vegetation and dirt roads will never be more than ambient light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_light

The areas I outlined in red are specular highlights!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specular_highlight
Quote:
A specular highlight is the bright spot of light that appears on shiny objects when illuminated (for example, see image at right). Specular highlights are important in 3D computer graphics, as they provide a strong visual cue for the shape of an object and its location with respect to light sources in the scene. The term specular means that light is perfectly reflected in a mirror-like way from the light source to the viewer.


Once again: The term specular means that light is perfectly reflected in a mirror-like way from the light source to the viewer.

That is exactly the type of light that is reflecting towards the camera(viewer) in the Chad image, which I outlined in red.


on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm, elevenaugust wrote:
You made a mistake on three of the five areas you outlined:
User Image



It's not a mistake, its a low resolution image that I outlined very roughly. I had very little pixels to work with in that image.. You are just nit picking and struggling to keep this hoax alive.

IS THIS BETTER?

User Image
User Image

Do you see the "hinges" on each arm? The block type part I outlined in red? Those are the parts that are lit up, and what I was roughly outlining. The very thin edges of the arm are reflecting light too! I was also trying to outline that but it is too small.

In your image you wrote "1, 2, and 3 are not full drone pieces but only the sky behind". You are wrong, there is a very thin section that is reflecting specular highlights, the "hinges" are reflecting light also. Because of this, the arms are blending in with the sky! THE PARTS I OUTLINED IN RED SHOULD BE SHADED, NOT REFLECTING LIGHT AS BRIGHT AS THE SKY!



on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm, elevenaugust wrote:
I know all of this and see where you are going from.
You're maybe right (it's not obvious due to the overexposure), but I really would like to see a real analysis that can confirm it or not, including:
- Drone tilting measurements facing more or less the camera
- Drone size estimation
- Distance estimation.


-You don't need to know how much the drone is tilting, you can see in the image yourself.

-You don't need to waste your time and estimate the drone size, IT DOESN'T EXIST.

-Nobody cares about the distance estimation, the drone is not actually in the image! You are on a wild goose chase.


on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm, elevenaugust wrote:
I wonder who is doing disinfomation?? Or maybe just a mistake?


The only one spreading disinformation is YOU, and DRT, because you are the only ones left who are actually trying to prove this confirmed HOAX is real. YOU are the only ones trying to debunk 100% honest analysis on these drones by using "what if's", irrelivant images, and horribly wrong opinions.

on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:10pm, elevenaugust wrote:
.....
Oh! I forgot, you want to see the disinformation running first....

Héhé!! You'll have to wait a little more.


Wait? Who's waiting? I completed all my analysis LAST YEAR, and came to a complete conclusion LAST YEAR. The only thing I am waiting for is the DRT website to be shut down, and the entire DRT crew to disappear from all forums out of pure humiliation.

I'm waiting for the "I told you so" moment so I can rub it in your face.
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 8:50pm by neveleeleven » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #838 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 2:55pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 1:16pm, TeachersPet wrote:
August Please don't let the door hit you on the way out..
Thank you..

@Katt Jedd Double..that is a fascinating link..make sure you look at bottom to make sure the edit date is old or recent..under a players name.
smiley



hmmm .. hope I don't get punched from either side here, but I and probably a few others were enjoying for a change both sides beginning to come to terms with each others ideas and the points being made.

I can sense a trying here.. I just hope it continues for everyones benefit of information sharing and analysing ..
Which is what everyone is gently encouraging in their own subtle ways shocked tongue
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xx Re: #7 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #839 on: Jan 4th, 2009, 3:00pm »

on Jan 4th, 2009, 2:33pm, tomi01uk wrote:
According to some those functions are used to evaluate the data, not manipulate or uncover but evaluate.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/farid/research/tampering.html

Tomi, Farid is the guy I got the cost estimate from that I gave last year.
Why can't DRT use him as you use him as a reference. and I know you suggested it to them. So its not your fault. Its theirs..They had the the resources back then. Simply referencing him is not good at this stage anymore.
He was probably the only one that knew how to work with scanned images as well.
A case of this magnitude from their POV, whould have required that kind testing to augment any investigation, before it even started. This substantiates the claim, that they didn't want to know, but drag this case on.
and when people worked it out for themselves..they still don't want to know, and still drag the case on.
So this at this stage when we are looking at for the hoaxers, is quite an annoyance, and highly suspect, No reflection on you personally, absent an iota of additional evidence any of it is true.
Had they done that, we would all be on the same page, one way or another.




« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2009, 3:28pm by TeachersPet » User IP Logged

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