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Jeddyhi
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #870 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 4:19pm »

Hi DrDil. Thanks for posting that. I remember the James Carrion incident well. I was appalled at how he was treated by the drone believers and how OM staff allowed it to continue. At the time, I was still an Administrator of the OM forum and posted my dismay. It seemed to me then ( and more so later) that OM was catering to the believers of the Drones.

Here is a link to James Carrion's account at OM. View all 65 posts made by James and see how he was professional and courteous as he could be. He asked sensible questions that were answered with evasive attitude. I do not blame Carrion for how he feels towards OM. I said it then and I say it now. That is not the way to treat any International Director of Mufon.

http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=jcarrion

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #871 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 4:51pm »

Well, those were the early days and hindsight is 20/20.
I can be a bit stubborn* back.. sometimes as well. rolleyes
but here... with this guy...
in hindsight, I still feel he short changed the matter into something that fit his beliefs and agenda.. which at the time was a hasty attempt to tie the drones into this other event, which in time has also proven to be a false theory.

He's not engendering any greater respect from me either by accusing the owners of OM forum of not being real... I'm sorry but one look at the guy and his MO and in my estimation it's 90% self serving ego at work. And a great many at Mufon feel the same.
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2009, 5:09pm by tommi01 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #872 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 5:24pm »

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 4:51pm, tomi01uk wrote:
Well, those were the early days and hindsight is 20/20.
I can be a bit stubborn* back.. sometimes as well. rolleyes
but here... with this guy...
in hindsight, I still feel he short changed the matter into something that fit his beliefs and agenda.. which at the time was a hasty attempt to tie the drones into this other event, which in time has also proven to be a false theory.

Hi Tomi smiley,

What event?

If you mean the Dive event then the only comparison I’ve seen Carrion make was that they were comparable due to the fact that they were both hoaxes and both created, nurtured & survived exclusively on the internet.

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 4:19pm, Jeddyhi wrote:
Hi DrDil. Thanks for posting that. I remember the James Carrion incident well. I was appalled at how he was treated by the drone believers and how OM staff allowed it to continue. At the time, I was still an Administrator of the OM forum and posted my dismay. It seemed to me then ( and more so later) that OM was catering to the believers of the Drones.

Here is a link to James Carrion's account at OM. View all 65 posts made by James and see how he was professional and courteous as he could be. He asked sensible questions that were answered with evasive attitude. I do not blame Carrion for how he feels towards OM. I said it then and I say it now. That is not the way to treat any International Director of Mufon.

http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=viewprofile&user=jcarrion


A pleasure Jed and I remember it quite vividly as well. grin

I was always a tad suspicious and still stand by what I wrote at the time.

Quote:
I must admit to being a little puzzled by the recent attendance at a popular UFO Forum by the International Director of Mufon. While I believe it was an unprecedented move in the right direction to try and unite the fragmented online UFO community I feared at the time that his motivations were a little less than sincere.

It quickly deteriorated into a crass show of, “Oneupmanship” and James left empty handed. This was purely as the UFO-Hunters show had requested information for an upcoming Mufon/Drone episode, information had already been provided for the television show in a very poor PowerPoint presentation by Mufon which quoted certain CGI expert/s without their prior knowledge and with information gleamed from private emails between Mufon and said expert/s.

I still believe there was an ulterior motive at play by Carrion, however this could well have been an honourable motive if it was to be made part of a public presentation (which I believe it was). As I say I was also there and participated in the discussion at the time Jed and I agree with your sentiments, especially as there wasn’t really an ulterior motive at play by his detractors because it was blatantly obvious that their motives were born of belief. (Sorry Tomi!! kiss)

Cheers.
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #873 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 5:40pm »

No offense taken DrDil. The event I'm refering to is the one where the legal plea to Nasa was granted on a ufo case. His theory at the time, which was put into his original pdf presented to us was that the whole drone case was engineered by US intelligence to nullify any attention that could be highlighted on the recent award of documents from NASA..

rolleyes huh rolleyes huh tongue
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #874 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 6:03pm »

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 5:40pm, tomi01uk wrote:
No offense taken DrDil. The event I'm refering to is the one where the legal plea to Nasa was granted on a ufo case. His theory at the time, which was put into his original pdf presented to us was that the whole drone case was engineered by US intelligence to nullify any attention that could be highlighted on the recent award of documents from NASA..

rolleyes huh rolleyes huh tongue

Here's the document Tomi:

http://www.ufo-blog.com/pdf/mufon_drone_summary.pdf

Could you give me the specific page reference as I must have missed it.

Cheers.
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #875 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 6:07pm »

Must we put a bigger stake through the heart of this thing for it to die. We had assumed it was finished as planned. Next will bring the Holy Water and Cross.
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #876 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 6:41pm »

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 6:03pm, DrDil wrote:
Here's the document Tomi:

http://www.ufo-blog.com/pdf/mufon_drone_summary.pdf

Could you give me the specific page reference as I must have missed it.

Cheers.


His explaination of his "disinformation" theory starts at page 24.
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #877 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 6:46pm »

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 6:07pm, Masker33 wrote:
Next will bring the Holy Water and Cross.


Knowing that might be deadly for you, I think most ppl here would restrain themselves.. wink
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #878 on: Aug 23rd, 2009, 7:39pm »

What struck me as odd was that James was asking if any of the photo witnesses had been vetted and how. Of course none of them had been vetted, so instead of saying that (and damaging the reality of the Drones) Dronies were evasive, standoffish, and simply rude.

Why didn't soneone just say "No, we haven't been able to establish any identities or vette these photo witnesses, publically or privately."

The Mufon Team had reached a logical conclusion of hoax based on the available evidence and circumstances. Die hard believers that wanted the drones to be accepted as an actual phenomenon were not going to help or answer questions of someone that had a complete opposite stance on the drone subject.

The bias that caused this attitude only grew worse over time.
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2009, 8:06pm by Jeddyhi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #879 on: Aug 24th, 2009, 07:10am »

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 7:39pm, Jeddyhi wrote:
What struck me as odd was that James was asking if any of the photo witnesses had been vetted and how. Of course none of them had been vetted, so instead of saying that (and damaging the reality of the Drones) Dronies were evasive, standoffish, and simply rude.

Why didn't soneone just say "No, we haven't been able to establish any identities or vette these photo witnesses, publically or privately."

The Mufon Team had reached a logical conclusion of hoax based on the available evidence and circumstances. Die hard believers that wanted the drones to be accepted as an actual phenomenon were not going to help or answer questions of someone that had a complete opposite stance on the drone subject.

The bias that caused this attitude only grew worse over time.


Well, I remember telling him to speak to LMH about the witnesses. And C2C. I remember at that time we were also working hard to find them by calling hundreds of names. He had access to the Raj interviews on OM and he could have asked Bren for advice if only he had approached all of us with a bit of humility and less attitude, pushing his own theory and agenda...

As you say, lack of humility and lots of attitude was the prevailing culture at the time.. from all camps..
I think we should blame it on Lev .. grin wink kiss

No.. what am I saying... SiddReader instigated it! grin wink
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2009, 07:26am by tommi01 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #880 on: Aug 24th, 2009, 08:04am »

He approached all of you via the OM forum with respect and professionalism. He asked simple questions that the dronies could not/would not answer.

When every single one of the photo witnesses refuses to at least privately come forward, then there is your first ingredient of an internet hoax.

Intelligent, reasonable people could make that connection. But a dronie could not. They would have rather dreamed up scenarios as to why the witnesses were afraid to come forward.

The Carrion incident on OM was a shame. The behavior of the Dronies was awful. It's all right there in the links I provided. Aside from defending himself, show me where James had 'attitude'.

The only lack of humility was from the dronies.
Quote:
We (the Drone Research Team) will NOT give any information to the MUFON.
Case closed


That statement from Elevenaugust prompted Jake Reason (at that time, an Administrator) to reply:
Quote:
Case closed?

Sorry, but no one person has the final say. And when that time comes, the Admin Team of OM will voice it, after careful consideration & agreement with all those involved.

I think there are still a few who would like to entertain some dancing, with their wine.

Cooperation is the final frontier of Ufology.

All players need to venture into this area, as the internet is forcing it.

It is a touchy subject, let the dialog continue.

I appreciate and welcome James' efforts and commend him for his engagement here. It is a positive step.

Whether or not we can assimilate cooperation to a successful conclusion, the fact that this is even happening is a most positive step in the right direction.

We may not make a date after the first dance. Everything takes time. There is always another day.

In the words of Will Rogers, "I never met a man I didn't like".


Who lacked humility? All that was evidenced from the Carrion incident was that the dronies would not share any witness information (because they had none and were afraid to have to admit it) and that they wanted the drones to be accepted as a real phenonemon for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2009, 08:16am by Jeddyhi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #881 on: Aug 24th, 2009, 08:29am »

on Aug 24th, 2009, 08:04am, Jeddyhi wrote:
He approached all of you via the OM forum with respect and professionalism. He asked simple questions that the dronies could not/would not answer.



Jeddyhi, my memory fails me here.. where .. or can you find me quotes where he asks simple questions not tainted by his bias?

and frankly.. he upset me quite a bit with his theory.. I could see that we were working on getting as much information about this case as possible and he was using what he could find to feather his own nest..
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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #882 on: Aug 24th, 2009, 09:22am »

I will list all my favorite James Carrion quotes, including questions that were evaded and ignored.

First, he offered full credit where credit was due:
Quote:
Anything OMRT provides to MUFON that goes into our article you will be fully credited on. I am not in the business of plagiarism, just the truth.


And yet again he offers to credit the OMRT:
Quote:
Let's not cry over spilt milk. If you are serious about your research and want your voice heard, I am offering you the chance to get your research into the MUFON Journal article I am writing, with full credit.


With his frustrations begining to show, he once again offers a venue that at the time was far greater than OMF's:
Quote:
These conversations in this forum do not seem to be leading anywhere productive. If OMRT is a legitimate group of researchers, with credible information to offer, and want their voices heard, the ball is in your court. You can reach me at jcarrion@mufon.com if you wish to contribute to the MUFON Journal article under the conditions I have laid out. If not, then your silence speaks volume.


Despite offering to give the OMRT full credit for any contribution, James now has to defend himself against baseless accusations:
Quote:
How convenient to accuse MUFON of only being interested in plagiarizing your work so as to justify your silence. Hopefully you will come out with your own published report that doesn't quote virtual witnessese and anonymous experts.


Here we have a very astute and correct assessment of the situation:
Quote:
I am here for one simple reason - to find out after 15,000 posts and I am sure a number of PMs between members, what credible information has been collected about the witnesses. I was told by one of the OMRT that I should read every single post to find out that information. I have read a significant number of the posts and what I am finding is that the vast majority of the posts are related to discussing the science of the drones, the authenticity of the ISAAC documents and the analysis of the photos. All of that is irrelevant until the photo witnesses can be positively identified as real people and their backgrounds validated. Since the photo witnesses preceded ISAAC coming out (how convenient), until their identities can be established, this case will go nowhere and we may as well label it the new MJ-12. Corresponding with the witnesses by phone or email is not going to cut it - virtual witnesses don't count. For that matter neither do anonymous experts.


Now we get to simple and direct questions:
Quote:
Would someone please explain to me in real terms what was done to validate the witnesses? Just the plain facts.


He tries once again:
Quote:
Can you please answer my question about how the witnesses were validated instead of asking more of your own?


More evidence of James' frustration over the evasive and rude behavior of the OMRT:
Quote:
Can you answer my direct question or not? If you can't, then stop responding to my posts.


Another attempt to seek an answer to a simple question:
Quote:
Or for that matter can someone ELSE in the OMRT answer my direct question - how were the witnesses validated?


More concise direct questions that were ignored:
Quote:
1. When do you plan on releasing your summary findings? Surely after all of the collaboration over many months, you have accumulated enough data to write a substantial report.

2. Will you be publishing the real names of the OMRT members in your report? Surely not all of them are going to claim anonymity despite their professional careers.

3. Will you be publishing the real names of your experts?

4. Will you include information on how the witnesses were validated that meets forensic standards?

5. Will your report stick to the facts and be unbiased in its approach?


An observation brought about by the evasive nature of the OMRT to any direct questions:
Quote:
The OMRT claims to be a cohesive group of serious researchers but the members don't speak with one voice. Some are courteous and some are message board trolls. Some answer direct questions and others evade. If you wish to be taken seriously, then don't bash everyone who comes to this forum with a non pro-drone opinion. Answer questions honestly and openly and stick to the facts. In the real world, this is called professional courtesy, but in the virtual world where everyone is hiding behind their anonymity, it doesn't seem to exist.


In response to a claim that most UFO witnesses claim anonymity:
Quote:
Au contraire my friend. Actually, witnesses not claiming anonymity are more frequent. I just had my webmaster run stats on MUFON's online reporting system and of 4791 reports, 2181 requested anonymity - 46%. So 54% did not choose anonymity.

So how do you explain that 100% of the drone photo witnesses are anonymous?

****************************************

I find it extremely difficult to believe that any member of the OMRT or the current DRT could defend their behavior in that thread. The only agenda at work was the pro drone agenda. It is still at work.

All of these quotes were taken from this thread:
http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=cali1&action=display&thread=2084&page=1

The thread is only 21 pages long and is an interesting and insightful read.
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2009, 09:28am by Jeddyhi » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #883 on: Aug 24th, 2009, 09:44am »

Right.. well thanks for that.. tongue

I still don't trust the guys motivations, plus with the risk of sounding even stupider than I do already.. he depreciated the drones instead of appreciated why we* were and are so fascinated at this saga..

* everyone

« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2009, 09:45am by tommi01 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: #9 The Drone Enigma A Global Search For The Tr
« Reply #884 on: Aug 24th, 2009, 1:29pm »

on Aug 24th, 2009, 08:04am, Jeddyhi wrote:
He approached all of you via the OM forum with respect and professionalism. He asked simple questions that the dronies could not/would not answer.

<snip>

Who lacked humility? All that was evidenced from the Carrion incident was that the dronies would not share any witness information (because they had none and were afraid to have to admit it) and that they wanted the drones to be accepted as a real phenonemon for whatever reason.

A couple of great posts Jed!! (As per..... wink)

Hi Tomi smiley,

I agree that too much time was spent elaborating on the finer details of the Kecksburg case but I believe it was one of James’ “pet cases” and something of a benchmark for Mufon so are you surprised? It’s also quite strange how when we recall the Carrion/OMF incident that the first thought that comes to my mind was the refusal to cooperate and yet the first thing you recall is this incredibly tenuous link to the Kecksburg case in a (admittedly hastily constructed) PPT presentation.

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 4:51pm, tomi01uk wrote:
in hindsight, I still feel he short changed the matter into something that fit his beliefs and agenda.. which at the time was a hasty attempt to tie the drones into this other event, which in time has also proven to be a false theory.

<snip>

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 5:40pm, tomi01uk wrote:
<snip>

His theory at the time, which was put into his original pdf presented to us was that the whole drone case was engineered by US intelligence to nullify any attention that could be highlighted on the recent award of documents from NASA..

rolleyes huh rolleyes huh tongue

“A false theory”
“His theory at the time”
?!

That selective memory of yours is getting worse with time Tomi!! laugh

He offered quite a few options/theories and he certainly didn’t state for definite that it WAS related to Kecksburg (exclusively or otherwise).

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And in my humble opinion it seems as if you still have an axe to grind which is quite worrying especially after the quotes Jed has posted as it appears that this doesn’t this absolve him in your mind in any way, shape or form.

on Aug 24th, 2009, 08:29am, tomi01uk wrote:
<snip>

and frankly.. he upset me quite a bit with his theory.. I could see that we were working on getting as much information about this case as possible and he was using what he could find to feather his own nest..

Heh, heh, make your mind up!! laugh

He either said his theory was a sanctioned event to detract from the Kecksburg documents or he was trying to feather his nest with information obtained (which Jed has aleady showed he was offering FULL credit for).

You can’t have it both ways, can you?

Or as I believe you have said prior, “You can’t be a little bit pregnantkiss.

on Aug 23rd, 2009, 4:51pm, tomi01uk wrote:
<snip>

I'm sorry but one look at the guy and his MO and in my estimation it's 90% self serving ego at work. And a great many at Mufon feel the same.

That’s massively unfair and could be considered defamatory without providing sources, percentages or even a rough estimate of exactly how many is a “great many” as the Mufon membership currently runs into the many thousands.

I’ll admit I’m surprised at the animosity towards him you still harbour Tomi, you said:

on Aug 24th, 2009, 08:29am, tomi01uk wrote:
Jeddyhi, my memory fails me here.. where .. or can you find me quotes where he asks simple questions not tainted by his bias?

And after Jed provided a plethora of them your retort was:

on Aug 24th, 2009, 09:44am, tomi01uk wrote:
Right.. well thanks for that.. tongue

What happened to the Tomi who was all for giving everyone a chance and sharing information?

What happened to the Tomi who disagreed so adamantly about NOT sharing information with those of a differing belief that she was unceremoniously ejected from the DRT (which she helped found)?

Hell, even after Lev admitted he hoaxed the thumper you still had room in your heart for forgiveness, I guess that’s the benefit of believing there’s a possibility of an element of truth to the Drones? undecided

Anyway, the Kecksburg connection as James explained was due mainly to:

Quote:
The correlation with Kecksburg stems from the CARET Executive Summary that discusses crashed UFOs in the Continental US in the 1965-86 timeframe.

And I hasten to add was never stated as fact or even the most likely candidate but as a POSSIBILITY.

And regarding your sentiments expressed here I see they haven’t really changed as back then you wrote:

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Which James quoted and replied:

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The conclusion of the PPT (as best was offered) was as follows:

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As you know Tomi it’s never personal I’m just surprised to see you still believe James is, for want of a better term, a “wrong ‘un” especially when it appears as if your reasoning for assuming such is fatally flawed.....

Cheers!! grin
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