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 sticky  Author  Topic: UFOs vs Demonic Forces  (Read 28585 times)
drwu23
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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #45 on: May 7th, 2015, 11:14am »

Carol...you already posted that link on the alien abduction thread in that forum... wink

At any rate I thought this thread was going to evolve into one about 'good and evil 'since no one had posted any ufo or alien comments for a while.

But on that note for me the whole problem with the previous posts is how one defines 'evil'...since it can merely have a mundane meaning as in something we don't like that is very bad or harmful to us on a human level or one can place it in a Biblical context where 'evil' comes from the Devil... and it beomes a supernatural force in and of itself...which I don't believe since I don't believe in Biblical supernatural forces -angelic or demonic.
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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #46 on: May 7th, 2015, 4:03pm »

"Spock, I've found that evil usually triumphs unless good is very, very careful."

-Leonard McCoy {TOS: "The Omega Glory" T.V. episode 1968}

------------------------------------------------------------------

My feelings on this subject {which is also the hope of many other ufologists}: Is that any race that has evolved the technological capabilities of interstellar travel --- are basically good --- or they would have destroyed themselves long before they had the chance too travel to the stars.
« Last Edit: May 7th, 2015, 4:05pm by Erno86 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #47 on: May 8th, 2015, 08:56am »

So can we come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as objective evil or, for that matter, objective good? Seems to me, the assessment of good and evil is always subjective.

S

« Last Edit: May 8th, 2015, 09:05am by Skeptical » User IP Logged

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #48 on: May 8th, 2015, 3:47pm »

on May 8th, 2015, 08:56am, Skeptical wrote:
So can we come to the conclusion that there is no such thing as objective evil or, for that matter, objective good? Seems to me, the assessment of good and evil is always subjective.

S



Uh... 'we' cannot, but you (with likeminded members) certainly are entitled to your opinion, Skeptical!

smiley

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #49 on: May 9th, 2015, 10:40am »

Well, purr, for the sake of discussion, can you give me some examples of something that is objectively good - meaning that it is always good regardless of circumstances? Sunlight, for example, causes plants to grow (good) but also causes melanoma (evil). Rain is good unless you get to much and then it's evil. The death of Saddam Hussein was considered good by some because he was a despot, and evil by others because he has been replaced by chaos.

I want to believe in objective good and evil but we are always forced to judge things by our own frame of reference. That judgment will always be subjective.

So, again, for the sake of discussion, what can you offer that is objectively good or objectively evil?

S
« Last Edit: May 9th, 2015, 10:40am by Skeptical » User IP Logged

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #50 on: May 10th, 2015, 04:41am »

on May 9th, 2015, 10:40am, Skeptical wrote:
Well, purr, for the sake of discussion, can you give me some examples of something that is objectively good - meaning that it is always good regardless of circumstances? Sunlight, for example, causes plants to grow (good) but also causes melanoma (evil). Rain is good unless you get to much and then it's evil. The death of Saddam Hussein was considered good by some because he was a despot, and evil by others because he has been replaced by chaos.

I want to believe in objective good and evil but we are always forced to judge things by our own frame of reference. That judgment will always be subjective.

So, again, for the sake of discussion, what can you offer that is objectively good or objectively evil?

S





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I'll come back with a serious attempt at answering philosophically (with that necessary dollop of science thrown in for skeptics of any denomination grin) a little later, but the short answer (from Evolutionary Psychology, the Atheist perspective) is:


Always evil: TO BE EATEN.

Always good: NOT TO BE EATEN.



From such simple beginnings humans, primates and other social animals could begin to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad' actions (leading to the one or the other!), developing an ever more complex moral sense. Moderns humans added a system of morality, and law.


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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #51 on: May 10th, 2015, 06:14am »

on May 9th, 2015, 10:40am, Skeptical wrote:
what can you offer that is objectively good or objectively evil?

S


Please look at the previous (oversimplified) post, simple is good in this case smiley! You might keep that unfortunate zebra's perspective in mind as my point of reference for establishing Good vs. Evil.

Broadly speaking, you are correct in suggesting there's lot of bad/wrong and good/right things which seem natural or accidental for which the label Evil may not be necessary. The reason we are discussing it at all is because we observe (a phenomenon of) actions by 'moral agents' (=folks who ought to know better) resulting in heinous suffering, murder, cruelty and injustice. Just like the ravenous lioness' actions may be excused by 'Nature', endless depraved acts of violence, murder and genocide committed by psychopaths and tyrants will be eloquently justified by its actors. They either had to 'defend themselves', or 'didn't intend that outcome' or 'obeyed the Holy Quran', or even were born with such 'killing nature'!

To do justice after all to those who suffer the worst (incidentally adding broader perspective to all instances of lesser bad vs. good) we need the concept of evil, in order to point out the evildoers. How? By stepping into the VICTIM's shoes (or hooves, in the case of our zebra).

Skeptical, taking the victim's perspective, 'always' (in the sense of an objectively observable phenomenon) yields degrees of goodness or badness of actions, even occasionally of very very very bad ones, crimes so abhorrent and shameful they then must be labeled 'evil'.

The above removes God from the good vs. evil argument: all we need is to be able to objectively observe Evil as a phenomenon.


Below a text that I found useful as well:


Arguments in Favor of the Concept of Evil

Some people believe that we should revive the concept of evil because only the concept of evil can capture the moral significance of acts, characters, and events such as sadistic torture, serial killers, Hitler, and the Holocaust. As Daniel Haybron puts it “Prefix your adjectives [such as ‘wrong’ or ‘bad’] with as many ‘very’s as you like; you still fall short. Only ‘evil’, it seems, will do” (Haybron 2002b, 260). According to this line of argument, it is hard to deny that evil exists; and if evil exists, we need a concept to capture this immoral extreme.

A second argument in favour of the concept of evil is that it is only by facing evil, i.e., by becoming clear about its nature and origins, that we can hope to prevent future evils from occurring and live good lives (Kekes 1990, Card 2010).

A third reason to revive the concept of evil is that categorizing actions and practices as evil helps to focus our limited energy and resources. If evils are the worst sorts of moral wrongs, we should prioritize the reduction of evil over the reduction of other wrongs such as unjust inequalities. For instance, Card believes that it is more important to prevent the evils of domestic violence than it is to ensure that women and men are paid equal wages for equal work (Card 2002, 96–117).

A fourth reason to revive the concept of evil is that by categorizing actions and practices as evil we are better able to set limits to legitimate responses to evil. By having a greater understanding of the nature of evil we are better able to guard against responding to evil with further evils (Card 2010, 7–8).



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« Last Edit: May 15th, 2015, 2:39pm by purr » User IP Logged

Let us be sure that those who come after will say of us in our time, that in our time we did everything that could be done. We finished the race; we kept them free; we kept the faith.

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #52 on: May 10th, 2015, 06:38am »

The concept of evil is just that ..a concept and imho doesn't exist except as a descriptive term or idea created by humans related to various religious based ideologies to explain the opposite side of good, another concept.
If one is truly unbiased then it becomes merely a way of differentiating actions that we deem harmful or detrimental to our well being.
Any other objectification in making it an actual force or phenomenon (as in 'alive' or from the Devil, etc) places it squarely in the realm of the supernatural and religious which is a faith based area. If one wants to believe in that origin that's up to them but at that point it becomes something that lies outside of rational thought and analysis.


BTW..this thread has again moved away from ufos and demons into a religious discussion. Perhaps someone could start such a thread in off topic..?
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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #53 on: May 10th, 2015, 06:57am »

on May 10th, 2015, 06:38am, drwu23 wrote:
The concept of evil is just that ..a concept and imho doesn't exist except as a descriptive term or idea created by humans related to various religious based ideologies to explain the opposite side of good, another concept.
If one is truly unbiased then it becomes merely a way of differentiating actions that we deem harmful or detrimental to our well being.
Any other objectification in making it an actual force or phenomenon (as in 'alive' or from the Devil, etc) places it squarely in the realm of the supernatural and religious which is a faith based area. If one wants to believe in that origin that's up to them but at that point it becomes something that lies outside of rational thought and analysis.


BTW..this thread has again moved away from ufos and demons into a religious discussion. Perhaps someone could start such a thread in off topic..?


Nope, dr Wu, your post just now inserted religion. I attempted to present an atheism based argument for objectively observing Evil, using a method that always yields results, regardless of when or where one measures.

My ultimate intention was to show that evil may be a real phenomenon, without the need for God (or religion), thus facilitating the possibility that aliens could be demonic.

smiley

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #54 on: May 10th, 2015, 07:02am »

on May 10th, 2015, 06:57am, purr wrote:
Nope, dr Wu, your post just now inserted religion. I attempted to present an atheism based argument for objectively observing Evil, using a method that always yields results, regardless of when or where one measures.

My ultimate intention was to show that evil may be a real phenomenon, without the need for God (or religion), thus facilitating the possibility that aliens could be demonic.

smiley

purr


I'm sorry but imo your explanation seems to border on religion without actually saying that. And again there can be no objective phenom since it's a concept. There is nothing objective about it. I'd be willing to bet you would be hard pressed to find one academic anywhere equating it as a 'real objective phenom' , outside of religion and metaphysics. If one wants to use it as a yardstick, which seems to be what those points you quoted are implying, that's one thing. But it is not 'real' (as in fire or rain...etc..) in any sense other than in our minds and how we qualify it.
But then that can be said for just about every 'concept' we have created.
Your ultimate intention falls short of the mark...imho. smiley

ps: this hinges on how one defines 'real phenomenon'....in the true meaning or is some subjective manner?
wink
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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #55 on: May 10th, 2015, 07:36am »

again,bangs head on wall..
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GREAT SPIRITS ALWAYS ENCOUNTER THE MOST VIOLENT OPPOSITION FROM MEDIOCRE MINDS E=MC2


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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #56 on: May 10th, 2015, 07:42am »

PURR N WU,

de·mon·ic

/dēˈmänik/ adjective
adjective: demonic of, resembling, or characteristic of demons or evil spirits.
"demonic possession"

synonyms: devilish, fiendish, diabolical, satanic, Mephistophelean, hellish, infernal; More
evil, wicked
"demonic powers"
•fiercely energetic or frenzied.
"in a demonic hurry"
synonyms: frenzied, wild, feverish, frenetic, frantic, furious, manic, like one possessed
"the demonic intensity of his playing"

an·gel·ic


/anˈjelik/


adjective

adjective: angelic

of or relating to angels.
"the angelic hosts"

synonyms: divine, heavenly, celestial, holy, seraphic, cherubic; spiritual
"angelic beings"

antonyms: demonic, infernal

•(of a person) exceptionally beautiful, innocent, or kind.
"she looks remarkably young and angelic"

synonyms: innocent, pure, virtuous, good, saintly, wholesome; beautiful
"Sophie's angelic appearance"

QUITE A TASK TO PARSE THROUGH SUCH SEMANTICS

se·man·tics

/səˈman(t)iks/ noun
noun: semantics; noun: logical semantics; noun: lexical semantics
the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning.

AS MOST HAVE AN EXPERIENCE/PERSONAL BASIS FOR THEIR CONNOTATION/DENOTAION. THE REFERENCE OF DEMON/ANGEL IS WHAT DRWU IS POINTING OUT ~ SUCH TERMS COME FROM RELIGIOUS PERSPECTIVES...IMHO...BUT I THINK YOUR POINT PURR...

TO WIT:

"My ultimate intention was to show that evil may be a real phenomenon, without the need for God (or religion),"

THUS WE SHALL PUT THINGS IN CONTEXT...RIGHT/WRONG ~ GOOD/BAD ~ WITHOUT ANY THEOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION OR E.T. ~ PARANORMAL CONSIDERATION ~ MOREOVER, THERE ARE INTERPRETIVE ASPECTS OF THE AFOREMENTION ADJECTIVES I.E. RIGHT/WRONG ~ GOOD/BAD WHEREIN WRONG MIGHT BE RIGHT...BAD MIGHT BE GOOD ~ ALL SUBJECTIVE AND RELATED TO CONTEXT AND APPLICATION ~ IMHO

"thus facilitating the possibility that aliens could be demonic."

I'M RATHER HESITANT TO FOLLOW UR BREAD CRUMBS HERE AS WHAT IS ONES DEMON IS ANOTHER'S ANGEL AND VICE-VERSA...

AND THAT EGG SHAPED PHILOSOPHICAL/THEOLOGICAL DISCUSSION CYCLES BACK TO ONES ORIGINAL ARGUMENT TO START ONCE AGAIN ~ AD INFINITUM ~ grin

MY POINT~ WHEN THERE IS LIMITED SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING OF A PHENOMENA ~ AND ~ ASSOCIATED SCIENTIFIC TERMS FALL WELL BELOW THE BAR TO CONVEY SAME (WHO,WHAT,WHY,WHEN -WHERE)~ WHY MIGHT THERE BE THOSE WHOM STUMBLE OVER LINGUISTICS TO DESCRIBE SAME TO EFFECTIVELY SUPERCEDE ( OR BE DISAPPOINTED) IN LIEU OF THOSE WHOM ARE CLEARLY CHALLENGED (SCIENTIFICALLY) TO DESCRIBE SAME...BUT I GET WHY CLIMB THE MOUNTAIN ~ BECAUSE IT'S THERE!!! smiley

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QUITE THE ~ THOUGHT ~ STIMULATING DISCUSSION...

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SHALOM...Z
« Last Edit: May 10th, 2015, 08:18am by ZETAR » User IP Logged

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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #57 on: May 10th, 2015, 11:15am »

The reason why I questioned the objective reality of good and evil in this thread is because it is germane to the idea of any demonic presence, assuming that, by demonic, you connote "evil" intent. The point was that just because someone or something has an agenda that is at odds with our human one, doesn't make it evil or demonic. We may be, as has been suggested, merely competing predators or, worst case, food.

S




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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #58 on: May 10th, 2015, 12:16pm »

on May 10th, 2015, 11:15am, Skeptical wrote:
The reason why I questioned the objective reality of good and evil in this thread is because it is germane to the idea of any demonic presence, assuming that, by demonic, you connote "evil" intent. The point was that just because someone or something has an agenda that is at odds with our human one, doesn't make it evil or demonic. We may be, as has been suggested, merely competing predators or, worst case, food.

S






Makes sense to me.....in the end it's subjective.
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xx Re: UFOs vs Demonic Forces
« Reply #59 on: May 11th, 2015, 3:50pm »

"The essence of evil is control and domination, and the essence of good is free will.
Good permits the free person to elect whether to follow the good or evil path, and in this way good relies upon the inherent goodness within an individual to make the correct choice."

Still...I have yet too see, here about or experience any evil intentions from the otherworlders that occasionally visit our planet --- save for a few possible anal probings or two. smiley

Too me...it's all about some cooked-up nonsense from some of the right-wing Christian Evangelical groups out to demonize the UFO enigma; because of fears about the truth and rightfullness of their own religion.
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