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 sticky  Author  Topic: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence  (Read 19446 times)
icepick
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #120 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 02:56am »

Wu, after rereading your link several times, and following the endless links found there, I see nothing new. Only the standard spiel of those seeking to debunk the idea, a spiel that ignores science. Not to mention technologies like the Neutron Bomb.

Once again I thought I might find something substantial, but only more speculation and opinion instead. They quote excavations from a time before the street level was reached. Do they not realize that sites like this are buried as time goes by?

Only more of what we complain about. People who read what they like, and ignore what they don't. Had this story originated on the internet, it would be far simpler to dismiss. In the 1970s, when I first found it, it seemed crazy, but the discovery was made by accredited sources.

The reports don't turn up on the net in those circles though, and I don't know the reason behind it. Add this to why the skeletons excavated in Lovelock, Nevada are locked away in university closets. Perhaps they simply don't want to waste time explaining things that don't fit their theories. Who knows.

One thing they can't ignore though, is a map of ruins located in the Indus Valley:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/IVC_Map.png

Notice those two cities on the middle left? This was an alleged river valley civilization. Those two cities are on the bed of a river that dried up during the Pleistocene. I know this isn't much, but it does raise questions. Like what are the chances they built cities so far from their mode of transportation?

There is more, but you get the idea. These are cities that were planned before they were built. Archaeologists admit that. There is far more than the standard amount of mystery regarding these ruins, but no scientists seek to explain why. Doesn't that set off your curiosity alarm? After all, it flies in the face of scientific SOP. If this were the Nile Valley, they would have to build an airport for all of the researchers. I'm highly inquisitive about the low amount of interest pertaining to such a significant set of ruins.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #121 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 10:22pm »

on Oct 30th, 2011, 01:13am, icepick wrote:
No, the link covers most of it. There is only the radiation levels, as well as the suspicious way those alleged skeletons are arranged in the Indus Valley to back this up. Some scientists say a massive CME could have caused the same thing. Others say that would have killed everybody.

There are also some epicenters found there by one researcher from Britain. But he nearly committed career suicide when he published those findings, so now he is silent. Understandable.

If you have a link to an accredited site that can disprove this concept, please share. I have tried for decades, to no avail. Yes, this story predates the internet.

Oppenheimer was the first person to reference this when he quoted the Mahabarrata after the Trinity explosion. "Now I have become death, the destroyer of worlds". As well as saying that it was the first atomic explosion in modern times. Everybody wondered what he meant back in the 1940s, and some thought his mind was suffering from having developed such a devastating weapon. Who knows? Oppenheimer's life took an interesting turn after that.

If you can't provide a link, then I will continue to believe that the place could have been nuked. All of the signs are there, and the scientific community refuses to address it. Or discredit it. That I find strange.

One other thought. Some Cosmologists wonder how a gamma ray burst might strike the surface, if it might briefly hit one spot. But that wouldn't describe the other sites, would it? Until more is learned, I see this as a high probability, but something we need to know more about as well. Yourself?


Uh..the link I gave did a good job of debunking ....it did you read it..?
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #122 on: Oct 30th, 2011, 10:26pm »

on Oct 30th, 2011, 02:56am, icepick wrote:
Wu, after rereading your link several times, and following the endless links found there, I see nothing new. Only the standard spiel of those seeking to debunk the idea, a spiel that ignores science. Not to mention technologies like the Neutron Bomb.

Once again I thought I might find something substantial, but only more speculation and opinion instead. They quote excavations from a time before the street level was reached. Do they not realize that sites like this are buried as time goes by?

Only more of what we complain about. People who read what they like, and ignore what they don't. Had this story originated on the internet, it would be far simpler to dismiss. In the 1970s, when I first found it, it seemed crazy, but the discovery was made by accredited sources.

The reports don't turn up on the net in those circles though, and I don't know the reason behind it. Add this to why the skeletons excavated in Lovelock, Nevada are locked away in university closets. Perhaps they simply don't want to waste time explaining things that don't fit their theories. Who knows.

One thing they can't ignore though, is a map of ruins located in the Indus Valley:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/IVC_Map.png

Notice those two cities on the middle left? This was an alleged river valley civilization. Those two cities are on the bed of a river that dried up during the Pleistocene. I know this isn't much, but it does raise questions. Like what are the chances they built cities so far from their mode of transportation?

There is more, but you get the idea. These are cities that were planned before they were built. Archaeologists admit that. There is far more than the standard amount of mystery regarding these ruins, but no scientists seek to explain why. Doesn't that set off your curiosity alarm? After all, it flies in the face of scientific SOP. If this were the Nile Valley, they would have to build an airport for all of the researchers. I'm highly inquisitive about the low amount of interest pertaining to such a significant set of ruins.


No offense but your links don't represent science imo since and what scientists are you referring to. It clearly shows that no accredited groups ever said these things about that area and that it is loose talk.
My question to you is do you have an actual authentic science link?
Not trying to be argumentative but imo it seems clear there are some exaggerations and eccentric beliefs going on here.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #123 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 01:06am »

Hold on. It may sound like my skeptical mind deserted me on this one, but that's not the case. Reread your link carefully, and you will notice it was researched entirely on the internet. Not so in my case, I first found this long before the net in 1973, and not in some fantastic tales mag. It wasn't possible to pollute a report then in the manner it is now. And please keep in mind that I've never called this a definite, only the best of the known possibilities. They try and skew the dates some, but the truth of the matter is that this civilization disappeared in the same manner Sumer did. In a very short period.

If you will take the time to read this through completely with an open mind, I will try to explain the rationalization one more time. Also, keep in mind that radiation can come from multiple sources. I'm going to include some not nice information about archaeologists as well.

Some omissions from your link.

Neutron Bomb design? Leaves buildings but kills people?

The Japanese cities were nuked via airburst by very small bombs. Not much fallout nor residual radiation under that scenario.

Background radiation is often averaged across the whole planet, but such is erroneous. If a given area has higher levels than the region around it and no radioactive material is present, you have an area with elevated background radiation.

These "cities" were not the bustling metropolitan type we know today. 44 intact skeletons on a single street is definitely a significant number. These were really towns, not cities.

A Google search for an obscure scientist using that criteria? No offense, but give me a break.

You want more? It's there. It sounds like they found the story on the net though, so disbelief is understandable. Too bad they didn't read enough to find out how old this report truly is.

One thing about archaeologists as well. They often ignore clues that stare them in the face. These ruins, ancient Sumer, the Nile Valley, as well as some in the Andes all allegedly were built at the same time initially. Around 7,000 BC. Talk about simultaneous invention. All are worlds apart, and allegedly had no contact. More here in a minute.

What about the two cities built on a dried up river bed? Actually it supposedly became the small stream it is today around 14,000 BC. Since no River Valley Civilization located in such an arid (desert, check Indus Valley pix) region would build a well planned town so far from a river, does this not leave an exceptional possibility open? Maybe the locals are right? These ruins are far older?

Another thing about archaeologists. They still claim Mesopotamia as the first Neolithic culture, correct? Check this link out:

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/a-brief-summary-of-the-earliest-neolithic-settlements-in-the-eastern-sahara/

And this one:

http://archaeologynews.multiply.com/journal/item/708

Why the silence? Take note that when these digs were producing these discoveries a few years back, they were dated as far back as 16,000 BC by most scientists. They missing word is archaeologist. Read carefully in the first link and you will know why. Archaeologists screamed so loud about these dates that the people responsible for the dating caved, and declared them much younger. Is that scientific deduction?

Sorry to stray like that, but I needed to make a point about this discipline. Seems they're willing to go to great lengths in order to preserve their current paradigm. If you want more linkage it can be provided, but it would get very dry and boring fast for some.

I'm just making the point that your link, while better done than most, is still what we complained about in another thread. Albeit the careful use of selected facts slightly out of context makes it sound convincing. It's all the known facts in their entirety, otherwise it's not valid, correct? And to be honest, had I found this story on the internet, instead of a college library 40 years ago? I probably would still refuse to acknowledge the possibility. It does sound a little too fantastic. But try as I might, in four decades I have never found anything to discredit this report.

By the way, other explanations have been offered. CME, Gamma Ray Burst, Ozone depletion, things of that nature. All of these have problems.

One last thing. Here is why a running river would be so important to a town in the Indus Valley region.
:
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1427167

the size of their cities:

http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia/swf/sind-101-climate_change-stack.jpg

not exactly in the pristine condition implied by the link, is it?

Whew! Done! Your link did try, but failed like all the rest. If archaeologists would only tackle this enigma, they could probably either prove it, or lay it to rest. As you can see, some blaring inconsistencies exist here. Especially those two cities on a dried up river. Oh, here's the map again:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/IVC_Map.png/250px-IVC_Map.png

http://www.imagesofasia.com/html/mohenjodaro/images/large/indus-map.jpg

A couple actually. Those two towns scream something unsaid, they're major clues. I'm not going to claim the obvious outright though, it's pretty extreme, and I could easily be missing a possible explanation.

Now, if you don't see a possibility after that ........... I will understand. This is the internet after all. But keep in mind that your link is inherently wrong about one fact for definite. Background radiation there is higher than in surrounding regions. This ............ has been established. Beyond that, the meager amount of research done on these ruins is nothing if not bewildering. Maybe they're too far from creature comforts?
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #124 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 09:45am »

on Oct 31st, 2011, 01:06am, icepick wrote:
Hold on. It may sound like my skeptical mind deserted me on this one, but that's not the case. Reread your link carefully, and you will notice it was researched entirely on the internet. Not so in my case, I first found this long before the net in 1973, and not in some fantastic tales mag. It wasn't possible to pollute a report then in the manner it is now. And please keep in mind that I've never called this a definite, only the best of the known possibilities. They try and skew the dates some, but the truth of the matter is that this civilization disappeared in the same manner Sumer did. In a very short period.

If you will take the time to read this through completely with an open mind, I will try to explain the rationalization one more time. Also, keep in mind that radiation can come from multiple sources. I'm going to include some not nice information about archaeologists as well.

Some omissions from your link.

Neutron Bomb design? Leaves buildings but kills people?

The Japanese cities were nuked via airburst by very small bombs. Not much fallout nor residual radiation under that scenario.

Background radiation is often averaged across the whole planet, but such is erroneous. If a given area has higher levels than the region around it and no radioactive material is present, you have an area with elevated background radiation.

These "cities" were not the bustling metropolitan type we know today. 44 intact skeletons on a single street is definitely a significant number. These were really towns, not cities.

A Google search for an obscure scientist using that criteria? No offense, but give me a break.

You want more? It's there. It sounds like they found the story on the net though, so disbelief is understandable. Too bad they didn't read enough to find out how old this report truly is.

One thing about archaeologists as well. They often ignore clues that stare them in the face. These ruins, ancient Sumer, the Nile Valley, as well as some in the Andes all allegedly were built at the same time initially. Around 7,000 BC. Talk about simultaneous invention. All are worlds apart, and allegedly had no contact. More here in a minute.

What about the two cities built on a dried up river bed? Actually it supposedly became the small stream it is today around 14,000 BC. Since no River Valley Civilization located in such an arid (desert, check Indus Valley pix) region would build a well planned town so far from a river, does this not leave an exceptional possibility open? Maybe the locals are right? These ruins are far older?

Another thing about archaeologists. They still claim Mesopotamia as the first Neolithic culture, correct? Check this link out:

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/a-brief-summary-of-the-earliest-neolithic-settlements-in-the-eastern-sahara/

And this one:

http://archaeologynews.multiply.com/journal/item/708

Why the silence? Take note that when these digs were producing these discoveries a few years back, they were dated as far back as 16,000 BC by most scientists. They missing word is archaeologist. Read carefully in the first link and you will know why. Archaeologists screamed so loud about these dates that the people responsible for the dating caved, and declared them much younger. Is that scientific deduction?

Sorry to stray like that, but I needed to make a point about this discipline. Seems they're willing to go to great lengths in order to preserve their current paradigm. If you want more linkage it can be provided, but it would get very dry and boring fast for some.

I'm just making the point that your link, while better done than most, is still what we complained about in another thread. Albeit the careful use of selected facts slightly out of context makes it sound convincing. It's all the known facts in their entirety, otherwise it's not valid, correct? And to be honest, had I found this story on the internet, instead of a college library 40 years ago? I probably would still refuse to acknowledge the possibility. It does sound a little too fantastic. But try as I might, in four decades I have never found anything to discredit this report.

By the way, other explanations have been offered. CME, Gamma Ray Burst, Ozone depletion, things of that nature. All of these have problems.

One last thing. Here is why a running river would be so important to a town in the Indus Valley region.
:
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/1427167

the size of their cities:

http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia/swf/sind-101-climate_change-stack.jpg

not exactly in the pristine condition implied by the link, is it?

Whew! Done! Your link did try, but failed like all the rest. If archaeologists would only tackle this enigma, they could probably either prove it, or lay it to rest. As you can see, some blaring inconsistencies exist here. Especially those two cities on a dried up river. Oh, here's the map again:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/IVC_Map.png/250px-IVC_Map.png

http://www.imagesofasia.com/html/mohenjodaro/images/large/indus-map.jpg

A couple actually. Those two towns scream something unsaid, they're major clues. I'm not going to claim the obvious outright though, it's pretty extreme, and I could easily be missing a possible explanation.

Now, if you don't see a possibility after that ........... I will understand. This is the internet after all. But keep in mind that your link is inherently wrong about one fact for definite. Background radiation there is higher than in surrounding regions. This ............ has been established. Beyond that, the meager amount of research done on these ruins is nothing if not bewildering. Maybe they're too far from creature comforts?


I still see nothing fom any recognized science or real archaheological group echoing your personal beliefs on this. Where are the links that show anyone other than fringers believe this? You provided links that had nothing to do with this ancient site other than maps.
Where did this original tale come from that you cannot find the original reference to? It still is unsupported by the mainstream regarding these wild claims and is only on fringe sites. Am I missing something here..?
Who says the radiation is that high, etc..? Where are the real studies..?
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #125 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:20am »

I'm only trying to get you to think a minute Wu, that's all. Read my sentence about multiple sources for radiation. There's something else hiding in there as well.

Yes, the concept is out there. But at least I'm not going for selective inclusion like your debunker did. Anybody can lie with facts to push an opinion.

Not saying I definitely have it right either. I would go for a link with proper deduction. Your link ignores some facts. That won't solve anything.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #126 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:38am »

on Oct 31st, 2011, 10:20am, icepick wrote:
I'm only trying to get you to think a minute Wu, that's all. Read my sentence about multiple sources for radiation. There's something else hiding in there as well.

Yes, the concept is out there. But at least I'm not going for selective inclusion like your debunker did. Anybody can lie with facts to push an opinion.

Not saying I definitely have it right either. I would go for a link with proper deduction. Your link ignores some facts. That won't solve anything.


What 'facts'' are being ignored..? And where is the data for these 'facts'? Who measured this radiation level and what paper or web site was it published in? Why is an abandoned complex that mysterious ...ancient civilizations come and go... I still have not read any legitimate link about this place being investigated by real science and/or archaeology. It sounds like you believe this was more than a natural explanation based on your personal beliefs about earlier civilizations and your personal belief in ET. Give me something more than just speculation...unless that's all there is. Having an open mind does not mean believing that anything wierd is connected to space aliens and/or ancient advanced humans.
Not trying to give you a hard time, but I just don't see anything truly strange here that connects it to aliens or ancient powers.

ps; I don't see any references for multiple sources about radiation.
« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:40am by drwu23 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #127 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:58am »

I went in search of some facts and read several web sites (none seemed that legit) and while several cited that the radiation was high and mysterious skeletons were there..,etc..not one cited names and dates of those who actually did this research and study....and where they published it.
I'm getting the sense that this is exaggeration and mystery added to make these ancient sites look more mysterious than they really are which has been done on many other ancient ruins.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #128 on: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:30pm »

Icepick,
Thought you might like this place.....

http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/default.htm

The intro written by Hancock addresses your concerns about our prehistory.



cool
« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2011, 10:37pm by drwu23 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #129 on: Nov 5th, 2011, 5:19pm »

Better look on Earth First.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #130 on: Nov 14th, 2011, 9:37pm »

on Oct 31st, 2011, 10:30pm, drwu23 wrote:
Icepick,
Thought you might like this place.....

http://www.grahamhancock.com/library/default.htm

The intro written by Hancock addresses your concerns about our prehistory.



cool


Hancock is interesting. But I'm not down with all of his ideas. He does do far more research on these topics than most before he writes though.

I believe we've discussed this in depth though? It's pretty obvious we're going to be pushing the dates for civilization back considerably, but as we've both noted, what level of civilization? That's the real unknown here.

Let's see .......... sea levels, the fact that advanced building materials deteriorate to nothing in a couple thousand years ........ how many things might help to make anything more advanced than early Dark Ages type civilizations hard to find? Yes, nuclear subs does sound a tad extreme. I believe Plato said Atlantis possessed Trireme type ships similar to those of the Greeks ............

I'll hold my opinions until archaeologists find something. But I'm sure they will. Neolithic Civilizations suddenly appearing immediately after the Younger Dryas ended in multiple remote locations in simply too coincidental. There's still hunter gatherers in the Rift Valley. Humans tend to be inventive by necessity, we don't just suddenly happen to have the knowledge.

Combine whatever catastrophic event(s) happened during that neutron barrage I posted the link for, as well as the fact civilizations turned up in river valleys instead of on coastlines, and you paint a picture of people seemingly afraid of the sea. But any speculation supported by scientific evidence stops right there.

Of course you can turn to legends if you wish. The Fallen Angels and the Nephelim sounds a lot like certain portions of Greek Mythology for example. And Plato's date for the demise of Atlantis just happens to be 12,500 years ago. It's all dependent on how far one is willing to run with it. I'm willing to speculate just beyond what is known, but feel anything more would be foolish. We'll have to wait and see.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #131 on: Nov 15th, 2011, 07:02am »

If people so smart here why they can not figure out this other types that some say come here. Intellegence is hoax here.
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #132 on: Nov 15th, 2011, 7:38pm »

Intelligence is not the problem, but perception.

People often see what they want to, but not what they don't wish to. It's a human condition seeking correction.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2011, 7:39pm by icepick » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #133 on: Nov 17th, 2011, 4:55pm »

when stuff,
is,
same as,
similar to,
just like,
HOW COULD IT BE ANY THING ELSE?
really.
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We are not to worry about a grain of sand in our friends eye, when we may have a two by four sticking out of our own
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xx Re: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence
« Reply #134 on: Nov 18th, 2011, 12:38pm »

on Nov 17th, 2011, 4:55pm, MOKSHA wrote:
when stuff,
is,
same as,
similar to,
just like,
HOW COULD IT BE ANY THING ELSE?
really.



Meaning what exactly...?

huh
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