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 locked  Author  Topic: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon  (Read 40653 times)
purr
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #690 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 05:57am »

on Jul 10th, 2016, 05:06am, pos1tr0n wrote:
It is a great irony how mankind is blind to the obvious and simplest phenomena (as i was too before). Take inertial propulsion. You will now learn how simple basic principle is yet it breaks all the "laws" of modern "science", particulary newton's thrid "law", "law" of conservation of momentum and "law" of conservation of energy.

This video is a great demonstration of this fundamental principle. As long as the ball oscillates in the right, yellow area, cart will continue to accelerate in that direction whether it is on ground, in air or in space.

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I like it! Although, the fixed length pendulum rod, by interacting with gravity, seems to add the additional energy, explaining the extra 19 centimeters of trajectory within Newtonian physics?


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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #691 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 06:15am »

Purr,

You will have noticed that the trolley only moves forward when the ball moves forward. And that, once the ball has passed it's lowest point it starts to move backward., not as far as it moved forward because it loses some of the balls energy in stopping the trolley's forward motion.

So it only supplies energy to the trolley for approximately 90 degrees of movement. The other 90 degrees it gives the energy back. But gravity prevents this working completely and the pendulum reduces it's arc with every swing.

I would point you to Eric Laithwaite. Google him. His interest in this kind of thing cost him him Royal Society membership. He was seen as 'heretical'.

You can't beat the laws of physics.

By the way, the trolley does not accelerate. it in fact moves forward in a series of jerks, each one less than the one before it as the energy transferred from the pendulum decreases with each reducing arc.
It is necessary to replace the store of potential energy at the start of every swing. And this decreases.


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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #692 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 07:03am »

Purr, like i said, this violates the Newton's third "law" as well as other two "laws" i noted above as it is accelerating while pushing against nothing. It is a simplest example of FOCUSING CENTRIFUGAL FORCE in one direction.

INT, you misunderstood. In this example released ball, due to friction, simply doesn't have energy to return to starting position, thus, it oscillates on the right (yellow) side. While it osciallates within the 180 (NOT 90 as you wrote) on the right side, centrifugal force pulls the cart in the right direction.

It moves in jerks because force is strongest when the ball is at the lowest point in alligment with cart's wheels. Due to friction, oscillations diminish and cart eventually comes to a stop. If oscillations continued within yellow area cart would continue to accelerate independent of surrounding medium.

This is the basic principle of inertial propulsion. I have talked about this before. In actual propulsion system, the key is to keep the rotating mass on one side - always.

In this way, continuous linear acceleration is achieved. Since centrifugal forces rises linearly with mass and radius and cubically with rpm, small mass at big speed can produce huge thrust for very little input energy.
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #693 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 07:09am »

Practical example, imagine you are floating in space and you have a long pole with a heavy mass at one end. Imagine what happens as you quickly swing the pole for 180 in front of you.. That's right, centrifugal force pulls you forward. Same principle as above.
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #694 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 08:48am »

on Jul 10th, 2016, 07:03am, pos1tr0n wrote:
In this way, continuous linear acceleration is achieved.


Utter poppycock! For anything to move throughout the universe involves some form of energy release. This energy has to be created to start with which involves another energy source.. REAL everlasting perpetual motion is impossible...
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #695 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 09:02am »

You are being confused. I would give you a simpler example but simpler example then the one above does not exist. Everything is always in perpetual motion.

on Jul 10th, 2016, 08:48am, notdej wrote:
Utter poppycock! For anything to move throughout the universe involves some form of energy release. This energy has to be created to start with which involves another energy source.. REAL everlasting perpetual motion is impossible...
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #696 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 10:00am »

Pos1tron,

I have found out in the past that it is pointless trying to explain anything to you. But I will just leave you with a couple pf thoughts.

..Practical example, imagine you are floating in space and you have a long pole with a heavy mass at one end. Imagine what happens as you quickly swing the pole for 180 in front of you.. That's right, centrifugal force pulls you forward. Same principle as above...

You do not need to go into space to show this isn't true. Or rather it is incomplete

If you stand on roller boots, or a small platform with rollers that can move in any direction, then swing a weight around on a pole (or a rope) you will find that you will rock gently around a very small area as the mass and force tries to continually head of in the direction the mass is pulling you. As it is swinging around through 360 degrees the mass is moving away from you all the time. So when it is behind you it pulls you backward.

There is an energy loss in all systems. If there wasn't then it would not be necessary to have a weight to energies the movement on a pendulum clock.
The energy in the trolley demonstration comes from the gravitational force on the ball.

I said 90 degrees because once the ball passes it's lowest point (90 degrees from it's start point) the mass is traveling 'uphill' against gravity, This is why it does not return to the same height as it started from. And why every subsequent swing is less than the previous one.

If the trolley had had spherical rollers (balls) instead of the wheels it had then this would have been obvious.

The maximum force available is when the pendulum with the ball is at 90 degrees to the gravitational force that is pushing it.

A bit of vector analysis will show this.

As the pendulum in the demonstration (the trolley) is not swinging vertically then the full force of gravity isn't pushing on ti anyway. Again, vector analysis will show this.

I'm not going to discuss this any further. I see no point.

If you wish to believe that thousands of scientist over hundreds of years are wrong or deliberately misleading you then that is your prerogative.

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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #697 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 10:04am »

Further,

Your spaceman analogy does not work in that manner.

It is not possible to carry out the action as you describe. You are ignoring the equal and opposite reaction.

There is no way for the weight on the end of the pole to stop moving unless an opposite force is applied to the weight.

Basic Newton.

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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #698 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 11:42am »

on Jul 10th, 2016, 10:00am, INT21 wrote:
Pos1tron,

I have found out in the past that it is pointless trying to explain anything to you. But I will just leave you with a couple pf thoughts.


Funny i was just going to say the same about you, with one little notion, what i say is correct and you are wrong.

Quote:
You do not need to go into space to show this isn't true. Or rather it is incomplete

If you stand on roller boots, or a small platform with rollers that can move in any direction, then swing a weight around on a pole (or a rope) you will find that you will rock gently around a very small area as the mass and force tries to continually head of in the direction the mass is pulling you. As it is swinging around through 360 degrees the mass is moving away from you all the time. So when it is behind you it pulls you backward.


Mass is never "behind you" in inertial drive or in this simple example. That is the very key, that mass is (like i repeated time and time again) ALWAYS on one side.

Quote:
There is an energy loss in all systems. If there wasn't then it would not be necessary to have a weight to energies the movement on a pendulum clock.
The energy in the trolley demonstration comes from the gravitational force on the ball.

I said 90 degrees because once the ball passes it's lowest point (90 degrees from it's start point) the mass is traveling 'uphill' against gravity, This is why it does not return to the same height as it started from. And why every subsequent swing is less than the previous one.

If the trolley had had spherical rollers (balls) instead of the wheels it had then this would have been obvious.

The maximum force available is when the pendulum with the ball is at 90 degrees to the gravitational force that is pushing it.

A bit of vector analysis will show this.

As the pendulum in the demonstration (the trolley) is not swinging vertically then the full force of gravity isn't pushing on ti anyway. Again, vector analysis will show this.


Lowest point is 180 from balls's starting point, not 90 like you keep repeating and you have completely missed the point. First of all, ball stops spinning due to friction, not gravity itself. That is one of most basic principles of mechanics. Frictionless pendulum would oscillate forever.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter where the energy comes from, in the video above it comes from gravitational potential, but it is even better if it comes from a motor or a hand swinging the mass.

As long as it oscillates on one side, it will focus centrifugal force in that direction and pull the whole system in that direction. It is ridiculous that you deny this and it shows how much you "understand" what is being discussed.

Quote:
I'm not going to discuss this any further. I see no point.

If you wish to believe that thousands of scientist over hundreds of years are wrong or deliberately misleading you then that is your prerogative.

HAL
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Intelligent people use their own mind, parrots repeat what they're told.

Quote:
Further,

Your spaceman analogy does not work in that manner.

It is not possible to carry out the action as you describe. You are ignoring the equal and opposite reaction.

There is no way for the weight on the end of the pole to stop moving unless an opposite force is applied to the weight.

Basic Newton.

HAL
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Wrong again. You are being very confused.

Rotating mass doesn't produce backward reaction force like throwing a stone in front of you would, since mass moves at 90 relative to the axis.

In other words, as you start swinging the pole centrifugal force pulls you forward giving you linear acceleration. Of course you would spin due to countertorque, this is assumed and does not conflict with the phenomena. If you do not want to spin, you need to swing two same masses in opposite directions.

This phenomena is self-evident and by denying it you just dig your own hole.
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #699 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 2:07pm »

I suspect none of us here are Physicists, least of all myself, so I doubt we will definitively settle the issue in this forum.

HAL and Pos, in your mind experiment (which was respectable practice by both the Greek Philosophers and scientific greats like Einstein), how would replacing the wheels with multidirectional skids/skis on a smooth ice underground affect the square platform/vehicle? Simple explanations please!


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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #700 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 2:13pm »

What's up INT, are you still denying this or will you admit you were wrong? If it hurts your feelings, you don't have to admit it, i'll be that compassionate. It is not bad to be wrong, it is bad not to wanna learn.

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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #701 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 2:35pm »

Purr, i see you too have trouble understanding it. It has nothing to do with type of the wheels and is completely independent of the wheels or any surrounding medium. That's why space example is the best.

You can test and prove this to yourself if you have two hammers and a cart or a small boat to sit on. When you swing the hammers in front of yourself, they will pull you and the cart/boat forward without pushing against anything. This may help you understand easier.


on Jul 10th, 2016, 2:07pm, purr wrote:
I suspect none of us here are Physicists, least of all myself, so I doubt we will definitively settle the issue in this forum.

HAL and Pos, in your mind experiment (which was respectable practice by both the Greek Philosophers and scientific greats like Einstein), how would replacing the wheels with multidirectional skids/skis on a smooth ice underground affect the square platform/vehicle? Simple explanations please!


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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #702 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 2:46pm »

Purr,

You may have seen the platforms that they use at airports to rotate the baggage holders as the place them in the plane. They use spherical balls instead of rollers. It allows the baggage holder to be moved in any direction.
Carrying out this experiment whilst viewing it from above will show what happens.

You could also do the experiment standing on a smooth sheet of metal on an ice rink.

Perhaps, in your official capacity, you would like to remind friend Pos1tron of the site's definition of a troll.

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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #703 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 3:00pm »

INT, continuing with nonsense and denying you're wrong is trolling by the definition. Why don't you just admit and help yourself?
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xx Re: Water, atmosphere and life on the moon
« Reply #704 on: Jul 10th, 2016, 3:06pm »

Purr,

The thing you have to remember is that when you start to swing something around you, be it a hammer or a troll on a rope, you have to dig your feet into the ground to get initial leverage, And you have to do this to keep the thing moving.

If you were in space, as Pos1tron suggests, there is nothing to lever against.
As soon as you try to move the mass around you yourself will move off in an opposite direction.

I imagine you would end up both rotating around an axis somewhere between yourself and the mass.

Friend pos1tron's grasp of Newtonian physics is tenuous at best.

Can't understand why he posted a selfy though; nice hammer.

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