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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: Mirage Men  (Read 24627 times)
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xx Re: Mirage Men
« Reply #195 on: Apr 10th, 2015, 7:39pm »

Gracias JJ grin

You have a gift bro. I swear you do. You summed up in one sentence what I thought. Personally, strictly imo, I think he knew but chose not to go where angels fear to tread. In human relations, this can build up a small stack of IOUs or favors. That does not denigrate his other works but do set the stage for a different strategy beyond what Vallee wants.
http://www.ikaros.org.es/english.htm
many good reads and pix here


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http://fotocat.blogspot.com/
Vicente Olmos who heads the UFO database for FOTOCAT, who has met and was heavily influenced in early years and from the website I retrieved that pdf sets his idea for a direction that simple data sets for pattern analysis cannot go.

In summary, Vallée’ strategy (2014) implies a complete re-examination of the UFO/UAP phenomena, it encompasses a full review of the history of UFO events from top to bottom, a job to be done by ourselves (with our biases and emerging ideas), and a job that will exceed our own life-times. Is that a realistic scenario? But are there any other alternative strategies?
[size=4]The Selective Strategy

I offer an alternate, more viable strategy. Let us select the best ~100 worldwide instances of well-documented or potentially documentable air or ground-level anomalies that describe a phenomenon whose features seem to defy current knowledge, point to an alien visitation or suggest an alteration in the space-time continuum. Let us look for scientists in the Universities, the Industry, the Government or the Military who have the expertise and volunteer to investigate them in depth. Or finance a fund to reimburse them for the job (crowdfunding or other.) Not any Condon-styled committee but a contracted large group of professionals based in several countries who invest their best capabilities in analyzing hard-core cases. Scientists and scholars unrelated to UFO research and independent. Although limited in scope it seems more practical than Vallée’ strategy because ‒if funds are in place‒ it could be resolved in a maximum of 10 years, soon enough for many of us to see.
The role of the cadre of experienced researchers Vallée described is paramount in this project, in two main areas: (a) the coordination of the whole program, and (b) to prepare a synthesis of all written bibliography generated on this topic, focused on scientific and objective findings.
Some of us have already reached tentative or final conclusions after a long-term study. It can satisfy us personally but I am convinced that many would also like to see a globally-accepted solution to the UFO/UAP enigma, either as the manifestation of ETI contact or as a social myth with no physical basis. In his noteworthy paper, Vallée writes: “Ufology has no ontology.” But what if “Ufology has no substance” instead? UFO/UAP phenomena have been with us at least from 1947. Mainstream science has dismissed it. Governments have released their past classified archives to the amateurs. The Military announced it is not their cup of tea. As Vallée recommends, it is time for designing a brand new strategy to avoid 70 more years of ignorance and frustration. I believe a global discussion is required in order to push the optimal strategy.
Valencia (Spain), February 2015.
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« Reply #196 on: Apr 11th, 2015, 10:12am »

De nada, senor, and gracias back atcha.
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« Reply #197 on: May 1st, 2015, 10:44pm »

Gilles Fernandez recently posted a worthy read at his blog, 'Skeptics vs. the Flying Saucers'. 'What if? The Roswell Slides Saga as a Social Experiment or a Hoax of some sort?' raises some interesting food for thought.

Robert Sheaffer followed that up with a post of his own at Bad UFOs in which he considered Gilles' points, as well as specifics of the likelihood the Roswell Slides were a hoax fed to pro-ETH researchers overeager to accept such stories. An excerpt from Sheaffer's relatively important read on the Roswell Slides, 'Are the "Roswell Slides" a 20th Anniversary Commemoration of the Santilli "Alien Autopsy" Hoax?':

Back in 1995, [George Wingfield] wrote a piece in the British publication Flying Saucer Review accusing three men of hoaxing the yet-unconfessed Santilli alien autopsy video: John Lundberg, Robert Irving, and, and Rod Dickinson, based on their involvement with Ray Santilli, their experience in producing special effects, and their reputation as Crop Circle makers. In that Flying Saucer review article Wingfield wrote that "The alien is, of course, called HILDA, which, in case you hadn't guessed, stands for Hoaxed Irving-Lundberg-Dickinson Alien." In 1995, RAY Santilli's hoaxed alien is satirically named HILDA - and now we have HILDA RAY. It seems as if the hoaxers may have signed their work, as an inside joke.

Concerning the Roswell Slides, Wingfield (writing as George32) recently described the manner in which the Santilli Alien Autopsy dummy was produced, and suggested that

the “Roswell Alien Slides” were produced in a similar manner and supplied to targeted individuals likely to take the bait. If that’s right, the #1 suspects are John Lundberg and Rob Irving. Both of them were in California in December 2013 where they were commissioned to make a huge elaborate crop circle near Chualar, CA, for Nvidia who wanted to publicize their ultrafast Tegra microchip.

Wingfield concluded,

Apart from their work behind and in front of the camera, Lundberg and Dickinson were the experts who made foam latex dummies for a TV series on UK's Channel 4 back then called "Crapston Villas". If Lundberg and Irving have been up to their tricks again on this 20th anniversary of Santilli’s alien autopsy hoax, it seems very likely they may have been the creators of the “Roswell Alien Slides”.

John Lundberg is now well-known as one of the Crop Circle makers at circlemakers.org. He is also the director of the documentary film Mirage Men. Based on the book of the same name by Mark Pilkington, it is a look at the purported role of government-sponsored disinformation in shaping the UFO phenomenon. I wrote to Lundberg asking for his comments on this. He might have replied something like, "I had nothing to do with either the Santilli Alien, or the Roswell Slides." Instead, he chose to reply in poetic and evasive terms, which I read as acknowledging that he was involved in those matters, but was unwilling to say so publicly. But one never knows what is to be taken seriously when dealing with Mirage Men.

If the Roswell Slides are indeed a hoax as is here suggested, it is certainly the most elaborate and sophisticated hoax since, well, the Santilli Alien Autopsy of twenty years ago. It almost feels like an act of art vandalism to betray their secrets.

Read the entire post at:

http://badufos.blogspot.fr/2015/05/are-roswell-slides-20th-anniversary.html
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xx Re: Mirage Men
« Reply #198 on: May 2nd, 2015, 12:38pm »

I wrote John by email before he put out the mirage men back during the first year of the Caret hoax as I was researching the fringe groups of the 70s a few who went on to things like sub rosa. and strange attractors The use of crop circle materials in caret and the herculean efforts by LMH and at that time Raj,com and circle connectors was a red flag to me.. He never answered me and so of course..that is one thing I detest..no response. Its not like I was writing to Beyonce or sometin. Someone at Mufon we both know did the same thing after mailing sensitive material.

That being said..is just a brdge under water now...therfore JJ you have my full authorization and the support of the entire ARC to Take these clowns Out with extreme prejudice. wink
Lets show them what strange attractors really means.
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« Reply #199 on: May 2nd, 2015, 3:32pm »

on May 2nd, 2015, 12:38pm, SysConfig wrote:
That being said..is just a brdge under water now...therfore JJ you have my full authorization and the support of the entire ARC to Take these clowns Out with extreme prejudice. wink
Lets show them what strange attractors really means.


smiley

Somehow I don't think they'd mind...

smiley

Just a short while ago I retweeted John's tweet that read:

"If Phineas Taylor Barnum was alive today, he would no doubt be working in the field of UFOs."

However, if Wingfield has conclusive evidence that can link John Lundberg or anyone else to a slides hoax, he should present it. Wingfield's observations (like the Hilda Ray play on words) are interesting, but there are a lot of loose ends to clear up and connections to be solidified.

But I thought it was interesting. So were the observations contained in the post of Gilles Fernandez, but Robert Sheaffer probably summed it all up best:

"But one never knows what is to be taken seriously when dealing with Mirage Men."
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« Reply #200 on: May 2nd, 2015, 9:19pm »

on May 2nd, 2015, 3:32pm, jjflash wrote:
smiley

Somehow I don't think they'd mind...

smiley

Just a short while ago I retweeted John's tweet that read:

"If Phineas Taylor Barnum was alive today, he would no doubt be working in the field of UFOs."

However, if Wingfield has conclusive evidence that can link John Lundberg or anyone else to a slides hoax, he should present it. Wingfield's observations (like the Hilda Ray play on words) are interesting, but there are a lot of loose ends to clear up and connections to be solidified.

But I thought it was interesting. So were the observations contained in the post of Gilles Fernandez, but Robert Sheaffer probably summed it all up best:

"But one never knows what is to be taken seriously when dealing with Mirage Men."


What an ego he has..it seems a common trait of hoaxters.because they operate on a simple rule that people are stupid..eventuall once tagged..it only takes once...then they have substantial diminishing returns...That sounds eerily like a challenge JJ..seems to me he is itching...begging even..to be proven so. That Jaime thing is in May isn't it?
Maybe he is waiting for that to ocurr and then step up to the plate. That might be in character with him.
In a way this is Illusionists versus Illusionists. I doubt Maussan believes any of this anymore than Linda does.I am sure the PTB are taking notes while eating their popcorn. Its a big tent and room for everybody.

I would have loved you to do the honors..and present him something like this.
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« Reply #201 on: May 3rd, 2015, 11:00am »

If there is something constructive to be learned from the elaborate hoaxes (with or without government sponsorship), I think it would be the extents gullible researchers are willing to take a questionable story and run with it. Even when hoaxes are conclusively demonstrated to be just that, hoaxes, they get recycled every few years. Then, not only do those with a strong will to believe keep getting duped, but even those with tendencies towards healthy skepticism become unclear on the details of who perp'ed the hoax, how it was carried out and so on (from one generation to the next).

In the end, the hoaxers must find it all to be a rather comical spectacle. Some critical thinking and raising the bar of vetting stories could go a long way towards improving the situation but, as has been pointed out in these circles, UFO buffs often don't want facts, they want stories.
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« Reply #202 on: May 3rd, 2015, 11:25am »

on May 3rd, 2015, 11:00am, jjflash wrote:
If there is something constructive to be learned from the elaborate hoaxes (with or without government sponsorship), I think it would be the extents gullible researchers are willing to take a questionable story and run with it. Even when hoaxes are conclusively demonstrated to be just that, hoaxes, they get recycled every few years. Then, not only do those with a strong will to believe keep getting duped, but even those with tendencies towards healthy skepticism become unclear on the details of who perp'ed the hoax, how it was carried out and so on (from one generation to the next).

In the end, the hoaxers must find it all to be a rather comical spectacle. Some critical thinking and raising the bar of vetting stories could go a long way towards improving the situation but, as has been pointed out in these circles, UFO buffs often don't want facts, they want stories.



I don't fundamentally disagree with what you said there. Would you post a few of what you personally consider to be better examples of elaborate ufo hoaxes by both civilians and the military..?
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« Reply #203 on: May 3rd, 2015, 6:13pm »

on May 3rd, 2015, 11:25am, drwu23 wrote:
I don't fundamentally disagree with what you said there. Would you post a few of what you personally consider to be better examples of elaborate ufo hoaxes by both civilians and the military..?


Besides what has been posted here and does not need repeating by JJ you can visit
http://www.ufotrail.blogspot.com/

that should hopefully point you in the right direction if not answer your question. wink
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« Reply #204 on: May 4th, 2015, 07:56am »

on May 3rd, 2015, 6:13pm, SysConfig wrote:
Besides what has been posted here and does not need repeating by JJ you can visit
http://www.ufotrail.blogspot.com/

that should hopefully point you in the right direction if not answer your question. wink


Thanks for the reply Sys....I was hoping to get a personal response from jj on his favorite cases.
Since there are 14 pages to this thread I have forgotten any specific ufo case examples by now.
I do have his page bookmarked but thanks for pointing that out.

btw...you do know that post was directed to jj....right?
wink
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« Reply #205 on: May 4th, 2015, 08:37am »

Thanks, Sys. Yeah, I was also gonna suggest drwu23 conduct a search or three at my blog if the subject matter particularly interested him. A lot is here on Casebook too.

Considering we're in the Mirage Men thread, I guess Doty would be as good a place to start as any. His deception of Bennewitz and Moulton Howe was relevant. Alejandro Rojas at Open Minds has a good summary of what the USAF is and is not willing to acknowledge about Doty's actions.

There's Serpo and the MJ-12. The guys over at Reality Uncovered did some pretty good work on those. They thought Doty was linked to Serpo, and Ryan Dube thought Col. Alexander may have been involved in the distribution of the MJ-12 docs, particularly after interviewing him about it. There was Simone Mendez and her unfortunate chain of events at Nullis AFB that the UFO community would have probably made a lot bigger deal about if we'd have never heard of what Doty did, which may have overshadowed the Mendez case a bit.

And speaking of Reality Uncovered, mur and the rest of that crew did a great job getting to the bottom of the “Source A” hoax. Then there was the drone hoax and the great work contributed by more members here.

And the story about the UFO crash in the Great Lakes that Carrion bird dogged but the alleged dive company fell off the face of the earth. And the Casselberry, FL alleged crashed UFO case that I pursued, only to establish that anonymous “witnesses” were misrepresenting the circumstances, including submitting a photo to NUFORC that was actually taken in Texas, not Florida, and not a single first hand witness could be located of the claims on the radio and Internet about a gov-secured crash site.

There's the mid 20th century memos Carrion cited, one that documented FBI agents discussing the likelihood UFOs were intel deceptions and another in which the USAF advised the Bureau the AF could attach disks together by wire and release them at high altitudes. Carrion has since conclusively demonstrated a deception operation was involved in the ghost rocket saga. A 1954 CIA memo suggesting assets in Guatemala fabricate a big UFO story is also interesting.

There's Romanek, Hopkins/Cortile, the disturbing behavior that is the body of work of David Jacobs and the ET-human hybrids that Lamb claims to know but refuses to facilitate documentation of their physical conditions. I'd go as far as to confidently suggest that abduction cases that have not been exaggerated and misrepresented by the “investigator” and various parties are exceptions, not the rule.

There's also the iconic Belgium triangle that apparently wasn't and the corporate UFO hoax perpetrated by a planetarium in Vancouver. There's Corso and Lazar. And let's not forget the flying saucer that wasn't following Haley Bopp that involved a bogus photo, an alleged but unnamed astronomer and dubious claims of remote viewing, all propped up on Art Bell's show before being conclusively demonstrated to have been a hoax prior to the Heaven's Gate event taking place.

Some of the above circumstances can conclusively be shown to involve intelligence agencies, some of them include the involvement of intel personnel for reasons that are unclear, some of it may or may not involve the IC and some of it of course does not. If conclusive IC involvement particularly interests anyone, learning more about Project Palladium is a must. It was a joint CIA, NSA and DoD operation that involved projecting false radar paints onto radar screens while simultaneously releasing unusual aerial objects into the paths of what was referred to as the ghost aircraft. Some operations apparently shared many characteristics of rather typically reported UFO sightings by military pilots, including losing radar contact at the point the pilot was preparing to fire on the bogie.

There are lots of hoaxes and deceptions that are interesting and relevant, and the above are just a few. Learn more searching my blog, this forum or, of course, the Internet. No shortage of UFO hoaxes and obfuscation, both with and without the intel community.
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« Reply #206 on: May 4th, 2015, 10:09am »

Fantastic summary.

I have only a few more useful years left JJ, and even less here I am sure....I woould like you to know..that if you ever wondered was all the work you do worth it..has it made a difference in at least one persons way of thinking?..It certainly has. It has been great distinction in my life conversing with you..and learning when I thought I knew all there was to learn..I never met anyone who placed such a premium on truth. I believe the world is going to be alright despite the hoaxters jokesters and the merry lot and mix of confusionists and illusionists which we have always had since man first put pen to paper, because there was that rare person, who seemed to come out of nowhere and set it staight
Thank you sir

Manny
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« Reply #207 on: May 4th, 2015, 10:28am »

Thank you JJ for that post mentioning those cases you felt were intriguing and most likely hoaxes. I am of course familiar with most of those except for the Great Lakes crash case. A good summary indeed.

If you have the time can you briefly say what your thoughts are on the UMMO events , on what Dr Vallee called (in Revelations..)the Frank Fontaine case in France and on Billy Meier.
Or if you can link me to a page at your blog where you have written an article on these and Meier
or would you just prefer to have one look them up there?
Thanks again....
smiley
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« Reply #208 on: May 4th, 2015, 6:40pm »

on May 4th, 2015, 10:09am, SysConfig wrote:
Fantastic summary.

I have only a few more useful years left JJ, and even less here I am sure....I woould like you to know..that if you ever wondered was all the work you do worth it..has it made a difference in at least one persons way of thinking?..It certainly has. It has been great distinction in my life conversing with you..and learning when I thought I knew all there was to learn..I never met anyone who placed such a premium on truth. I believe the world is going to be alright despite the hoaxters jokesters and the merry lot and mix of confusionists and illusionists which we have always had since man first put pen to paper, because there was that rare person, who seemed to come out of nowhere and set it staight
Thank you sir

Manny


Thank you, Manny. I'm honored. And I believe the world is going to be alright, too.

Thank you sir,

Jack
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« Reply #209 on: May 4th, 2015, 6:56pm »

on May 4th, 2015, 10:28am, drwu23 wrote:
Thank you JJ for that post mentioning those cases you felt were intriguing and most likely hoaxes. I am of course familiar with most of those except for the Great Lakes crash case. A good summary indeed.

If you have the time can you briefly say what your thoughts are on the UMMO events , on what Dr Vallee called (in Revelations..)the Frank Fontaine case in France and on Billy Meier.
Or if you can link me to a page at your blog where you have written an article on these and Meier
or would you just prefer to have one look them up there?
Thanks again....
smiley


I think a lot of Vallee's work was interesting, but I never dug any deeper into it than just reading his books, so I don't have any more qualified of an opinion than anybody else. From what I recall of the Fontaine case, I'd say it might be kind of intriguing in some of its potential implications to behavior modification projects and Rendlesham, at least concerning possible hypnosis and behavior manipulation in interrogation. Might be some connections there, I dunno.

As recently as 2010, a Turkish intel officer was convicted of using hypnosis during interrogation:

https://web.archive.org/web/20141216180423/http://www.todayszaman.com/national_retired-officer-gets-75-years-for-hypnosis-in-interrogation_214647.html

It would seem relevant to me to inquire where he received his training in such techniques, for instance. Drugs and torture are of course well documented at Gitmo, but I'm not aware of Uncle Sam playing the hypnosis card lately. But I'd be interested in knowing where the Turkish lieutenant came by such practices.

I never looked into Meier extensively. My gut shot would be a hoax (or a combination of sincere belief coupled with what his camp feels are justifiable exaggerations) and some fairly effective marketing. But I dunno... I've never seen anything about the Meier case that would lead me to particularly think otherwise.

What do you think?
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