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oljack666
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xx FACT OR THEORY?
« Thread started on: Feb 21st, 2007, 11:06am »

Fact or Theory?



As defined, a theory is a guess or conjecture only and not an absolute fact. A conjecture is the formation of an opinion without sufficient evidence. And, as defined, a fact is something known to be true and not questionable. I find that we should discern between theory, conjecture and fact while posting. More importantly, It is only an experience of observation that can determine a fact from a theory. Lastly, facts usually remain the same and theories often change.

The reason why this needs to be discussed is because possibly someday, multitudes of individuals who have never even looked inside of a UFO/alien website will be visiting us in the droves. Now that last sentence is a theory for most all of you, and conjecture for others, however for me, it is a fact based on my own personal experiences and observations.

My worries are that if an individual finds us posting theories as facts, I find that some will become disheartened and click out of here because they'll be concerned about what it is that they have just read.

This is usually made noticeable by an author's conviction in their statements who believe theories to be factual rather than theoretical as seen by their word usage. Of course, we can't ignore the theories altogether, because they are our best explanations of the facts since they do interact; it's just that we should never consider them to be absolute truth.

In science, it is written that you cannot prove any theory to be true without observation. You might think up a thousand totally different tests to try to disprove the theory, and it might pass every one. Does that mean it is"true"? No, because the 100th test could prove it false. While scientific theories are never supposed to be considered to be absolute truth, some have passed so many tests that they are called "laws," not theories. For example, Newton's laws. A scientific law is like a theory that has been inducted into the "Science Hall of Fame." But even then it might have to be modified. Einstein found some corrections even for Newton's laws, but they are normally far too tiny to even be able to measure.

Facts

The word fact can be used several ways, but generally, "facts" refer to the observations. They are best when they are repeatable observations under controlled conditions, such as "It is a fact that the speed of light is constant in a vacuum." This is the part of science which will be the same a century from now, unless more precise measurements show otherwise.

Theories

Usually the word "theory" is reserved for more than a first attempt, which might be called a "hypothesis." A theory usually has already survived several falsification attempts, and is pretty well accepted but it's still not fact.

The Word "Fact"

The word "fact" has several meanings, which can be very confusing. In popular usage it can mean either "observation," "truth," or even "theory." As an example of each, one can say, "it is a fact that every time I have dropped this ball, it fell to the ground." That is what has been observed so far, and the word "fact" can be replaced with "observation." One can also say, "it is a fact that every time I have dropped this ball, gravity pulled it to the ground." Even though this statement appears very similar to the first, "gravity" really refers to a theory proposed to explain why the ball is observed to fall. Finally, if one so thoroughly believes that the theory of gravity is really "true," he could replace "a fact" with "true," which would take the meaning beyond science into the realm of his personal convictions.

I wanted to add the above paragraph because the word theory can be used in terms of fact, but certainly not in respect to conspiracy.

This confusion can often be avoided by always replacing the word "fact" with "observation," "theory" or "truth," which ever seems to convey the intended meaning best. Remember that if the meaning is "observation," then it is as fallible as the observer. If it is a "theory," then it also could be disproved someday. If something is claimed to be "truth," then it is a statement of the personal conviction of the author, which is outside the domain of science.

More simply stated, the sky is not blue.

« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2007, 2:48pm by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #1 on: Mar 5th, 2007, 9:16pm »

people get confused with facts and theory. There are a lot of theories. All UFO info is just theories until we have one to study. Until then ALL is theory.....
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oljack666
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #2 on: Mar 5th, 2007, 10:22pm »

on Mar 5th, 2007, 9:16pm, toxo1 wrote:
people get confused with facts and theory. There are a lot of theories. All UFO info is just theories until we have one to study. Until then ALL is theory.....


Yes toxo1 except for one notation. A UFO sighting is considered a fact to an observer and is just a theory to those who have not observed.

It is only observation that can change a theory to a fact but that fact only remains with the observer(s) and no other.


« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2007, 7:28pm by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #3 on: Apr 10th, 2007, 10:32am »

ATO you have done a great job detailing the difference between FACT vs THEORY. So much so I can't add anything to it.

However one thing that is prevalent in the UFO community and one thing that fuels disbelievers arguments is FACT VS FICTION.

Fiction: An imaginative creation or pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.

Too many times we believers are led astray by someone posting a story or a photo that's a known hoax. It happens far too many times because for whatever reason that person feels the need for publicity. It happens with crop circles all the time. Those who perpetrate these acts do us all a disservice. Some are unknowing, an honest misunderstanding. But some are deliberate. Posted only for self gratification. These people make all of us who believe and are searching for answers look like fools. I can deal with the UFO nuts who run around with tin-foil antennas on their head. Stupid? Yes! But they're usually harmless.

What really burns my *** are people who KNOWINGLY LIE to us. They may even pretend they're something they're not. They lie in hopes of getting their ego stroked because in truth THEY'RE NOBODYS! They never will be. If you want to know the truth look for the answers yourself.

This is an incredible forum. I've met some WONDERFUL people here. BJ and the moderators do a great job running this site. I only hope all of you remember this when you post. TO BE A MEMBER HERE IS A PRIVILEGE NOT A RIGHT!

We are all here for the same reason. Looking for answers with like minded people. Giving our opinions on a variety of topics. That's what makes this forum so special to people like me. That's what in my opinion make this the BEST UFO site on the net. So be honest with yourselves and keep it real. Just my two cents! Dan
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #4 on: Apr 10th, 2007, 11:10am »

Right On!!!as we old hippies say. grin Some of you may notice from time to time that I am less than completely sugar and spice when I come into contact with the fruitloops that swarm some sites. It is not that I mean to be nasty towards these folks, some of them may have 'problems' and cannot tell reality from fantasy. Still, it behooves us to speak out whenever we see "fiction/lies" posted as truth.

As a collective, we are the voice of the UFO community. What is posted here is seen by the casual visitor as what we as a whole think. If/when the time comes that the world at large has a need for information about UFOs and EBEs, here is where they will come.

Still, I don't want anyone to think that I am advocating censorship of ideas. I most certainly do not! I am saying that any unreasonable "fact" presented here, unless it has proof, should be immediately challenged. By so doing, any casual reader will not only see any forthcoming proof, or lack thereof, but will understand that we are indeed serious in our commitment to finding the truth.

Maybe only asking the poster if what they are saying is based on factual observation, or on their own reasoning, or what their source is for the statement, will be enough. Though I doubt that some that I have run into on the internet will understand the concept of proof.

This remains one of the very best places to exchange ideas and gain new insights . I hope that will remain true for a very long time.
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oljack666
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #5 on: Apr 10th, 2007, 2:26pm »

on Apr 10th, 2007, 11:10am, TheWatcher wrote:
Still, it behooves us to speak out whenever we see "fiction/lies" posted as truth.


That's just it, but why should we be forced to sift through all of the lies that sit out and about in the UFO/alien oriented websites.

on Apr 10th, 2007, 10:32am, GForce wrote:
ATO you have done a great job detailing the difference between FACT vs THEORY. So much so I can't add anything to it.


Thank you Dan. It comes from a lot of aggravation. grin Certainly even I had to seek for most of what I've written above since I couldn't always find the proper lingo or analogies.

Quote:
Fiction: An imaginative creation or pretense that does not represent actuality but has been invented.


Fiction can be made fact for some personalities. The mind is a funny duck and if a certain individual (personality) entrenches themselves in a particular subject that is not even theoretical but rather fiction, they many times begin to believe that it is so. Sad, but unfortunately I see it a lot in alien and UFO website forums.

Some time ago, we had a poster who always had a tremendous amount of conviction on a few subjects and would use the words "I believe" consistently after never having any experiences with UFOs and aliens on a personal level whatsoever. In these cases, this is an individual who is sold by another based on the content in their story.

I always take this opportunity to post something I'm notorious for posting as frequently in the forum as possible that happens to fall into this thread's catagory somewhat. So here goes.

Everyone that religiously posts in any UFO/alien oriented website should occasionally step away and take a break from it. Not doing so can interfere with your mental health no matter how strong you feel you are in that department. Like I said, the mind is a funny duck and entrenchment causes many things and paranoia can be one of them

I thought that was nuts when I first read about it but then I was posting from about January 2004 to mid summer - daily, and frequently. So I stepped away for a few weeks and boy what a difference. I was me again and not this dark person I was making myself while staying entrenched.

I hope Merlin will jump in here too because he made a comment to me himself the other day about his own personal experience on the subject.

Quote:
Too many times we believers are led astray by someone posting a story or a photo that's a known hoax.


And sometimes it's a notable individual within the UFO community and so we can be drawn in easier. There is a very notable individual who is even an alien abductee and I know people that hang on his every word. His abduction experience was real to me as I'm sure it was to many, which is why people believe everything he has to say on everything else that are not personal experiences of his own.

Over time, he has dismissed some of these beliefs (aside from his own abduction of course) but not all of his readers from the past know this and still believe his previous comments to be so.

Quote:
But some are deliberate. Posted only for self gratification.


Exactly! Self gratification is a drug. But, you can peg these people pretty easy on the Internet since it's in their speech.

Psychological disorders are tremendously prevalent in UFO and alien sites because those disorders existed before entering those doors. Many of the experiences parallel the same experiences as abductees and the rest is self explanatory. If someone hears voices or has visions they will think first it's God, and second it's aliens instead of seeking medical help first in order to dismiss a biological or psychological disorder. Consequently and unfortunately, we have both in the realm of UFO and alien websites.

Quote:
What really burns my *** are people who KNOWINGLY LIE to us. They may even pretend they're something they're not. They lie in hopes of getting their ego stroked because in truth THEY'RE NOBODYS! They never will be. If you want to know the truth look for the answers yourself.


The self gratification thing again.

It's funny that you bring this up because the answer to this one is quite easy and just happen to have it handy.

An individual who intentionally lies (especially about themselves) usually does so since there is a actual feeling of grandure that one feels when acting out the lie. It's actually a high for many individuals. It's like their drug. These are the "I've done that", "I've been this", "I know this person", "I know that person", "I'm all this and I'm all that", etc., and the Internet is full of them. It's simply narcissism and here are the symptoms.

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
4. requires excessive admiration strong sense of entitlement
5. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
6. lacks empathy
7. is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
8. arrogant affect

The sad thing here is that they are the way they are (usually always) because of the actions of others. In most cases you'll find a tremendous lack of self-esteem and self-worth that was instilled by a set of parents who shouldn't have been parents. Many times it's created by siblings and teachers and even through molestation and the like. It's very repairable and requires maybe one visit to a psychiatrist who simply shows the individual how they got that way and shows them that it wasn't their fault and to catch themselves when they begin to fabricate a new lie and eventually it will all go away. Essentially, the psychiatrist is diagnosing their problem and describing it to them in a fashion that they can now understand. The part that remains unrepairable is the low self-esteem and low self-worth. That takes certainly more then one visit to repair, if ever.

Unfortunately, too many lies are being told in respect to UFO's, aliens and the government for all those reasons. When we have too many lies flying around the Internet, it hurts our trek because more then anything it's simply a lack of knowledge and ends up as a conspiracy theory. Once it's a conspiracy theory and one entrenches themself in it, it grows rapidly through forums and websites. When something gets big, it gets a lot of attention. Then the cycle continues and the size of the circle within that cycle is greater.


« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2007, 1:27pm by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #6 on: Apr 10th, 2007, 3:07pm »

on Apr 10th, 2007, 2:26pm, Atrueoriginall wrote:
I always take this opportunity to post something I'm notorious for posting as frequently in the forum as possible that happens to fall into this thread's catagory somewhat. So here goes.

Everyone that religiously posts in any UFO/alien oriented website should occasionally step away and take a break from it. Not doing so can interfere with your mental health no matter how strong you feel you are in that department. Like I said, the mind is a funny duck and entrenchment causes many things and paranoia is one of them

I thought that was nuts when I first read about it but then I was posting from about January 2004 to mid summer - daily, and frequently. So I stepped away for a few weeks and boy what a difference. I was me again and not this dark person I was making myself while staying entrenched.

I hope Merlin will jump in here too because he made a comment to me himself the other day about his own personal experience on the subject.




I have to say i agree with everything written above, i take breaks from the subject like ATO says it can effect your mental well being.


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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #7 on: Apr 10th, 2007, 4:46pm »

I visit so many informational sites these days, that no one of them dominates my thinking at any given time. I think it is dangerous to have your life focus around just one intense subject.
It is just good for my mental health to go around reading all kinds of interesting things and doing lots of fun things. Also important to interact with people on a face to face basis as well. We need to have the eye contact and touch as well as this type of interaction....just my opinion.
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #8 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 08:56am »

Alexander I don't think anyone is trying to censor what is said on the board. But I do think many arguments sometimes heated are caused because two or more members have different theories on a subject. A fact is just that...A fact. Something known to exist. You can't debate facts. A theory is something YOU may believe that can't be backed by facts. Theories/opinions are subject for debate. Facts are not.

Case in point. Roswell. Roswell happened, debris was removed. FACT! What was removed? Theory! My opinion is that it was some time of spacecraft not a balloon. Thats my opinion which is based on theory not facts.

Documents while interesting do not mean something is a fact. They can be faked quite easily. Same with videos and photographs. That's why I believe people who KNOWINGLY perpetrate such hoaxes or pose as something or someone they're not should then be exposed as frauds. So they'll lose any credibility that they may have. Case in point. The creators of the alien autopsy video. Just My OPINION! Dan
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #9 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 11:04am »

Alexander, good points. Let me ask you at what point do you speak up? Without naming names, when someone comes on and states as a FACT that they are an alien, and babbles no end about how they have done everything from saving the planet to building a starship, all without any proof, when does your nausea factor kick in?

Like others, I'm here to learn. I ask questions so that I can have a better understanding of what is happening. I will accept any theory as just that, a theory. But the second a statement is put forth as fact, I want some proof, or at the very least, some logic. I have no other reasonable yardstick to measure reality by. (I'm real short on faith in anyone or any organization.)

While I may seem to be nit picking when I ask for these things, I'm really trying to sort out the truth. And I do voice the opinion that to be understood in the context of the internet, one needs to use some form of punctuation and grammar. While I do use spell check myself, most of the time, I am not adverse to those who spell phonetically. Sometimes I get a real chuckle out of the misspelled words.(As in your use of "lire" for 'liar in the above post.I had a mental picture of a banknote. smiley That did not distract from your post though.)

I am not opposed to any religion, though I do not participate in such things as it is my personal opinion that the whole "priest" thing is really the oldest profession, despite what working ladies of the night are labeled. And while I recognize that some see a very strong tie between the spiritual and the UFO phenomenon, I can scarcely accept a new Divinity on their word alone.

Nor do I advocate censorship. Ever. I do advocate respecting the intelligence of others here at this site, and other forums, by behaving in a manner that is rational.While everyone has the right to free expression, everyone else has the right to point out those things which the conventions of civilized humans consider unworthy.
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oljack666
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #10 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 2:35pm »

on Apr 11th, 2007, 11:04am, TheWatcher wrote:
Without naming names, when someone comes on and states as a FACT that they are an alien, and babbles no end about how they have done everything from saving the planet to building a starship, all without any proof, when does your nausea factor kick in?


I can relate to that statement. I cannot stomach most of what I read on the Internet in alien websites. After maybe a paragraph, I'll either read the whole article or click out. I get so frustrated because I see so many people sold down the river by others simply based on the words they use to write their article. Especially, those who believe that they are aliens or of the alien race.

Well, now you know what drives me nuts. lol

Truthfully, what it is, is that I cannot handle ignorance or someone who is overly naive. It may be a fault of mine but outside of them being maybe mentally challenged, I feel that such is totally unnecessary today considering everything that we have available to us to learn by. Some just don't care to try I guess.

Actually I would make for a great skeptic however those waters are dirty on the subject of UFOs and aliens.
« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2007, 2:53pm by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #11 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 3:07pm »

Forums/Message boards are great for meeting like minded people and exchanging thoughts and ideas. That includes opinions and theories. Some message boards however are complete chaos. Where members are allowed to make personal attacks based on one anothers beliefs. While I have visited such sites I refuse to join or take part in their verbal sparring. Too old for it!

What I look for in a forum is intelligent debate. Through debate you may learn things or see things through a different light. In a way you've never thought possible. To do that you have to have an open mind. Even when I disagree with someones opinion I try to understand it. I'm not ignorant enough to believe I know everything. I'm smart enough to know I don't. rolleyes

Since ATO has explained Fact vs Theory vs Fiction and done a great job at not only explaining it but confusing me as well. I will only add that the reason I'm here is to search for not only the truth, but to have greater understanding on the topics at hand. To meet like minded people and learn from their experiences. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't want nor need groupies who think I'm an intellictual God and know everything here. Well.... maybe....naw. I have 4 dogs who think I'm god and a wonderful lady at home who pretends I am. I think I've just perfected chee. Uh oh I hope I spelled chee right. The Watcher is watching!
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oljack666
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #12 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 4:46pm »

In continuing from the top......

Many people say that they believe my stories and experiences during abduction and being a contactee. They can't actually. It's virtually impossible to truly believe anything until one has experienced the same thing. They can only say, I'll try to believe. Other abductees and contactees can believe and they do but they've also had their own personal experience, which was the same but different. As well, people such as Bud Hopkins have tremendous conviction because of their personal experiences with abductees so they can as well say the words, "I believe" due to their observations.

Actually, I have to take that back a little bit because to know me on a personal level, one would or could believe but that's hard to pull off on the Internet.

Nobody said anything about censorship. It's more a case of showing less conviction. Too much conviction on every subject shows me things I don't want to see. It's hard to define what I just said so I won't but I pass on reading many articles when conviction is always present. Maybe it reminds me of India Daily or a similar Internet rag publication that sells ideas as facts and not theory.

When I read what people have to say on certain subjects I do one thing first. I sit and dwell on what millions will be thinking when they read it if that time ever comes and ET knocks on our door.

If and when this happens, there are no government websites for them to visit while they sit in wonder what ET's next move is. The only thing there is, are websites such as ours, which would make us responsible for the content about aliens and UFOs.

Some of the information on the Internet is totally wack and I mean way out there. This is why it is best to stay within the area of theory and use words such as "I think", "possibly", or "maybe" instead of showing a conviction that states something like, "I know for an absolute fact that this is true because I have documentation on such or so and so."

There is not a single stitch of documentation of any kind about aliens or UFO's that isn't theory except for personal observation by the observer and then it is only fact for the observer and not anyone else. I do not mean personal observation of documentation either but rather the personal observation of the actual incident be it a UFO or an abduction.

In other words, if you saw a UFO and you knew for an absolute fact that it was an actual UFO (the alien kind), then it is a fact for yourself, however it will remain a theory for everyone else. That's just the way it is. One can try to believe and some even do try to believe but they can't honestly because they did not see it themselves. A person that will believe is one that also saw a UFO firsthand and knows it is very possible. They will be the exception.

If everyone believed everything they read about UFO's and aliens there would be major excitement going on all over the UFO and alien websites - but there isn't because they have had no such observations.
« Last Edit: Aug 15th, 2007, 05:52am by oljack666 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #13 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:28am »

DrkDrgn if you see a document that you believe is true, then you can accept it as fact. But if you post what's in it without the document then it becomes hear-say. Some may accept you at your word, others may not. I tend to always say: It's my belief or its my opinion. In other words I couch my statements so the members will know this is only my opinion, my beliefs and has no factual merit. I will admit I'm a bit of a skeptic especially when someone wants you to believe they have inside knowledge. I like to see their proof. I'll even settle for a link. Then I make up my own mind.

I like to think a great forum allows you to post in 3D. Debate, Discussion, Disagreement! Nothing is wrong with any of the three. You run into trouble when bitter, mean spirited arguments breakout. I stop posting in a thread when it becomes apparent a member is ignorant or narcissistic. Y rolleyesu can't debate with them. So I don't.
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xx Re: FACT OR THEORY?
« Reply #14 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 1:09pm »

DrkDrgn sometimes ignorance is bliss! I've never seen a UFO nor have I ever been abducted. So in an ignorant way I've been blessed. That said, I'm still stupid enough to hope I will someday either see or make contact with ET.

However I will admit I believe most of the stories here of those who have been abducted. And most of their stories are not pleasant. But if a UFO landed on my front yard I would be dumb enough to approach it and offer the alien dudes a beer. What could it hurt? grinDan
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