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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM  (Read 1215 times)
ZETAR
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xx THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Thread started on: Aug 22nd, 2015, 10:49pm »

SOMETHING I ALWAYS THOUGHT WAS...

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HOWEVER ~ TO WIT:

"This is directed at all my American colleagues.

Time to S**t or get off the pot.

I'd like to hear from each of you. Who, amongst the current potential presidential runners, would you choose as next president, and why.

I would also like this not to turn into another argument.at least until you all have given your reasons.

So, let's refrain from any debating of the responses until the following at least( Any I miss please join in) have responded."

EVER HOW MUCH I ADORE THE APPROACH ~ AND WITH RESPECT TO HAL'S INQUIRY (WHICH FOR MY ANALYSIS IS PREMATURE ~ MANY MORE ROUNDS IN A/THE BLOOD SPORT OF >>> POLITICS <<< FOR ME TO OPINE ~ WHILE/WHILST THINGS REMAIN IN A FLUX MODE) ~ NOW THAT I HAVE CROSS-TOPICALLY GARNERED YOUR ATTENTION...

The artifact was recovered in 1900–1901 from the Antikythera shipwreck off the Greek island of Antikythera.[11] Believed to have been designed and constructed by Greek scientists, the instrument has been dated either between 150 and 100 BCE,[5] or, according to a more recent view, at 205 BCE

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CERTAINLY AN ANCIENT ARTIFACT WHICH IN LIEU OF THIS...

"Cardiff University professor Michael Edmunds, who led a 2006 study of the mechanism, described the device as "just extraordinary, the only thing of its kind", and said that its astronomy was "exactly right". He regarded the Antikythera mechanism as "more valuable than the Mona Lisa"

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DOES THIS NOT APPEAR TO BE A TAD BIT EARLY FOR THE TECHNOLOGY CIRCA >>> the instrument has been dated either between 150 and 100 BCE,[5] or, according to a more recent view, at 205 BCE <<<...cool

ANY THOUGHTS AS TO THE ORIGIN OF >>> "Antikythera mechanism" <<< OR RATHER...ANALOG 1

SHALOM...Z
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2015, 10:51pm by ZETAR » User IP Logged

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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #1 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 05:00am »

ZETAR,

I believe it's called 'cross - topic entrapment'. And is banned in most of the free world. smiley

As you know from the long conversations we held previously on this subject, I find the mechanism fascinating.

But is there anything new to say about it ?

My conclusion was that it probably isn't from the era it is supposed to be. And my reasoning is laid out in the earlier posts.

I'm quite happy to re - hash this one if anyone has anything new to add to the discussion. Maybe you could add a link to the earlier posts. This would give any new readers some background .

HAL
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #2 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 08:11am »

The math involved with the mech is very interesting, just imagine tech that has not been found from a time further back.

The politics you can stick in your ear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZXjUqLMgxM

tongue
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #3 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 09:00am »

HAL,

TO WIT:

" 'cross - topic entrapment' " ~ YES SIR ~ A PATTERN I SAW DEVELOPING ~ HENCE ~ I THOUGHT IT PRUDENT TO MERELY OBSERVE RATHER THAN OPINE ~ YOU BRITONS ARE A QUICK STUDY!

@ MOKSHA

TO WIT:

"The math involved with the mech is very interesting, just imagine tech that has not been found from a time further back"

MY THOUGHTS AS WELL...

SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #4 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 09:38am »

A good overview from wiki.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

"In 1974, British science historian and Yale University professor Derek de Solla Price concluded from gear settings and inscriptions on the mechanism's faces that it was made about 87 BCE and lost only a few years later.[11] Jacques Cousteau and associates visited the wreck in 1976 [20] and recovered coins dated to between 76 and 67 BCE.[21] Though its advanced state of corrosion has made it impossible to perform an accurate compositional analysis, it is believed the device was made of a low-tin bronze alloy (of approximately 95% copper, 5% tin).[22] All its instructions are written in Koine Greek, and the consensus among scholars is that the mechanism was made in the Greek-speaking world."


*Regarding politicians.....they need to be changed frequently like baby diapers and for the same reasons.
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2015, 09:40am by drwu23 » User IP Logged

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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #5 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 09:58am »

DRWU,

THE MERE FACT THAT THIS EXISTED CIRCA SUCH PERIOD ~ DO YOU NOT FIND SAME >>> UNUSUAL <<< cool

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TO WIT:

"*Regarding politicians.....they need to be changed frequently like baby diapers and for the same reasons."

I QUITE AGREE AND THOUGHT I WOULD PROVIDE A GRAPHIC FOR SUCH >>> KING SIZE <<< ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED...

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SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #6 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 10:10am »

Zetar said: DRWU,

THE MERE FACT THAT THIS EXISTED CIRCA SUCH PERIOD ~ DO YOU NOT FIND SAME >>> UNUSUAL <<<



What do we mean by unusual?
.There are always scientists and others who are ahead of their time when it comes to such things. Don't underestimate the power of human imagination and ability.
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #7 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 10:58am »

DRWU,

TO WIT:

"Don't underestimate the power of human imagination"

THAT MY FRIEND >>> IS THE POINT <<< cool

YOU ARE INDEED COOKING WITH {LAUDEMIO Extra Virgin Olive Oil - Tuscany, Italy} cool

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IMAGINE THAT...

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SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #8 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 2:03pm »

Jim Webb for president 2016...hands down.

Because he is a Democrat, former Vietnam vet, pro-gun, former U.S. Senator and former Secretary of Defense.
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #9 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 2:40pm »

ZETAR,

...DRWU,

TO WIT:

"Don't underestimate the power of human imagination"

THAT MY FRIEND >>> IS THE POINT <<<



Sorry, but that isn't the point.

The point is that there are no known contemporary devises of a similar kind.

Nothing.

A geared mechanism would not exist in a vacuum. There would be other, possibly cruder, earlier attempts at some other object. Maybe a clock or two.

Look at our own auto transmissions. Very sophisticated. But derived from gear boxes that become progressively better as the years pass by. There is a long, long line of similar transmissions that goes back beyond the age of steam. Hundreds of thousands of examples litter the history.

A multi - geared mechanical computer existing on it's own that is neither pre - dated or post- dated by ANY geared mechanism for hundreds of years is just so unlikely that it amazes me to find it has been accepted as a fact by so many experts.
The logic of when it was made was derived from some very clever investigating. And it all makes sense. Except for the thing itself.

The maths may have existed. but so does the maths that say we are only one of many universes. But we can't find proof of other universes even though the cleverest people on the planet have been looking for years.

There is something wrong with this story.

Erno86,

Thanks for the input on presidential options. But it's on the wrong thread.
Could you please move it to join the others.

HAL
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #10 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 3:02pm »

Skeptoid's take on it:

Physically, the device was about the size of a shoebox, with wooden sides and bronze faces. On the front face were two large and three small output dials. On the back were three concentric output dials. To operate the device, you turned a crank on the side which rotated at least 30 gears inside the machine, some of which were epicyclic. The hands that went round each of the two large dials swept over spiral slots, with a pin on the arm that rode in the slot, similar to a needle following the groove on a record. By setting some preferences, such as what type of calendar you wanted to use, and turning the side crank to select the current date, you could learn all sorts of things: Whether this was an Olympics year, when the next solar and lunar eclipses were (by date and hour), where the twelve constellations were along the ecliptic, the phase of the moon, and the positions of the five planets known at the time.

[...]

So what about these claims that the mechanism is 1,000 years out of place, and no humans had the knowledge to make something like it? Does this prove that aliens, Atlanteans, or time travelers must have been involved? It is a fact that the Antikythera Mechanism is substantially more complicated than any other mechanical devices known from its time. Specifically, it's one of the earliest known uses of meshing gears. But contrary to the popular telling, it's not the oldest. Gears were used to drive doors and lift water in India as early as 2600 BCE, two and a half millennia before the Antikythera Mechanism. Aristotle described the function of gears in the 4th century BCE. 100 years later, Dionysius of Alexandria used gears in his automatic arrow firing machine gun. The Greek National Museum contains examples of epicyclic gears from the period. Archimedes was making all sorts of mathematical and mechanical inventions at the time. For hundreds of years, Greek astronomers had been studying the movements of heavenly bodies, and by Archimedes' lifetime, all the motions replicated on the Antikythera Mechanism were known to science.

[...]

Most archaeologists agree that this particular device was neither unique nor the first of its kind. Two factors contribute to this: First, its design is quite refined, which is not consistent with a prototype. Second, an object as expensive and complex as this would typically be made in a series in order to recover the costs of design. Why, then, are its siblings not found? Probably because they were made of bronze, and bronze was highly recyclable and valuable. Few commonplace bronze objects from the ancient world survive for this reason, except for those that were lost at sea and thus escaped recycling. If there were other computational devices made in the period, it is not surprising to archaeologists that they were lost to history and are unknown.

Full post, which includes much more information, enough of which is properly sourced, in my opinion:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4184
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #11 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 3:19pm »

JACK,

TO WIT:

"But contrary to the popular telling, it's not the oldest. Gears were used to drive doors and lift water in India as early as 2600 BCE, two and a half millennia before the Antikythera Mechanism."

THERE IS QUITE A DIFFERENCE FROM GEARS OPENING DOORS TO GEARS OPENING ASTRONOMY ~ IMHO...cool

"Cardiff University professor Michael Edmunds, who led a 2006 study of the mechanism, described the device as "just extraordinary, the only thing of its kind", and said that its astronomy was >>> "exactly right" <<< wink

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DRWU

WE CAN'T ALL BE A SCHMART AS YOU SIR grin

TO WIT:

"Sorry, but that isn't the point.

The point is that there are no known contemporary devises of a similar kind.

Nothing"

INVIDUALS WITH IMAGINATION ~ WELL ~ MANY SEE WHAT THEY'RE COMFORTABLE SEEING ~ WHETHER SUCH TRUTH IS UNIVERSAL...WELL...

"The point is that there are no known contemporary devises of a similar kind."

INDEED WHY I THOUGHT IT BENEFICIAL TO REVIEW OLD NEWS ~ WITH NEW EYES ~ ANYHOO ~ I MUST CONCUR WITH YOUR OPINION >>> "no known contemporary devises of a similar kind" <<< shocked

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SHALOM....Z
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #12 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 3:41pm »

Simple question. Is there an example of how it's astronomy is "exactly right" as claimed by a professor?

Seems to me to be an easy claim to prove or disprove. Where is such analysis and test results of someone turning the gears, etc. and getting a result that is exactly right? What is the definition of exactly right? What was being looked for and how precise was the result? Was it verified and duplicated on other "astronomy" examples and open to review by others?

These are all reasonable questions. A lot of claims but no beef.
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #13 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 5:13pm »

GHOST,

TO WIT:

"A lot of claims but no beef"

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"Seems to me to be an easy claim to prove or disprove"

PROCEED MY FRIEND! ~ grin

IN LIEU OF ANY HESITATION...

res://ieframe.dll/acr_depnx_error.htm#livescience.com,http://www.livescience.com/1166-scientists-unravel-mystery-ancient-greek-machine.html

Precise astronomy

The new analysis reveals that the device's front dials had pointers for the sun and moon — called the "golden little sphere" and "little sphere," respectively—and markings, which coincided with the zodiac and solar calendars. The back dials, meanwhile, appear to have been used for predicting solar and lunar eclipses.

The researchers also show that the device could mechanically replicate the irregular motions of the Moon, caused by its elliptical orbit around the Earth, using a clever design involving two superimposed gear-wheels, one slightly off-center, that are connected by a pin-and-slot device.

The team was also able to pin down the device's construction date more precisely. Radiocarbon dating suggested it was built around 65 B.C., but newly revealed lettering on the machine indicate a slightly older construction date of 150 to 100 B.C. The team's reconstruction also involves 37 gear wheels, seven of which are hypothetical.

"In the face of fragmentary material evidence, such guesswork is inevitable. But the new model is highly seductive, and convincing in all of its detail," wrote Francois Charette, a researcher at the Ludwig-Maximilians University in Germany who was not involved in the study, in a related article in the journal Nature.

Discovered in 1900

Pieces of the ancient calculating machine were discovered by sponge divers exploring the remains of an ancient shipwreck off the tiny island of Antikythera in 1900. For decades, scientists have been trying to figure out how the device's 80 fragmented pieces fit together and unlock its workings.

Previous reconstructions suggested the Antikythera Mechanism was about the size of a shoebox, with dials on the outside and a complex assembly of bronze gear wheels within. By winding a knob on its side, the positions of the sun, moon, Mercury and Venus could be determined for any chosen date. Newly revealed inscriptions also appear to confirm previous speculations that the device could also calculate the positions of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn — the other planets known at the time.

The international team, led by Edmunds and Tony Freeth, also of Cardiff University, included astronomers, mathematicians, computer experts, script analysts and conservation experts from the U.K., Greece and the United States.

The researchers plan to create a computer model of how the Antikythera Mechanism worked and eventually a working replica.

The team's findings will be presented in a two-day international conference in Athens and published in the Nov. 30 issue of the journal Nature.

SHALOM...Z
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xx Re: THE ANTIKYTHERA MECHANISM
« Reply #14 on: Aug 23rd, 2015, 8:12pm »

Hmmm... I dunno, guys... A number of points seem to be selectively omitted from consideration.

It's being implied that there is something unusual or even extraordinary about the making of the device, but it is not being specifically stated exactly what that is believed to be. If it is believed the mechanism was created by or with the assistance of something other than humankind, it should be specifically stated, else you're requesting the rest of us either support or counter an argument that is not actually even being made.

The proof that the device was made by humans is simply that it exists. That would be high hand to beat.

There is no reason to suppose otherwise unless extraordinary evidence demanded so. Is it being suggested that alien technology involved brass gears?

As for the curious dating and seeming lack of apparent prototypes of the device, that was acknowledged and addressed by Skeptoid. That seems to be rejected without acknowledgment in favor of supposition that is not clarified.

If some of you want to speculate or believe the device has fantastic origins, you're of course entitled to do so. But if you expect others to agree with your beliefs, it would be necessary to clarify them and support them. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to suppose the device is anything more than a quite man-made item, clever as it may arguably be.
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