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 hotthread  Author  Topic: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?  (Read 1276 times)
PlanosLie
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #15 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 12:05am »

Calminian,

Thanks for the link to the full thing, I just downloaded it. I like Chuck Missler but regrettably there are some things he said on the video that are not entirely accurate. Off the top of my head he said that the LXX says "angels of God" but it's a minor variant (Codex Alexandrinus) that says "hoi angeloi tou Theou" (the angels of God). Nevertheless it is indeed there.

Also, there is a guy by the name of Thomas A. Howe, a Ph.D that dedicated some to try and refute Chuck. His arguments IMHO come up rather short, but I'm one for a good discussion, therefore I'll consider all angles. I'll upload his PDF for you to read if interested. If what I believe can be refuted, then I'll no longer use that argument even if I knew that I could use it on the unsuspecting. Truth matters more to me than winning arguments.
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Calminian
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #16 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 01:13am »

on Jul 18th, 2010, 12:05am, PlanosLie wrote:
Off the top of my head he said that the LXX says "angels of God" but it's a minor variant (Codex Alexandrinus) that says "hoi angeloi tou Theou" (the angels of God). Nevertheless it is indeed there.


There's another thing Heiser said, that he believed sons of God were different than angels. The most convincing argument that they were indeed the same is the Jude 6 passage (and 2Pet. 2:4). My only pet peeve is I hate hate HATE the word angels. It gives the impression it's the name of a species of some sort. Yet in both the greek and the hebrew the word used is simpy messengers which is used both of men and heavenly beings.. The only translation I know that translates these correctly is Young's.

on Jul 18th, 2010, 12:05am, PlanosLie wrote:
Also, there is a guy by the name of Thomas A. Howe, a Ph.D that dedicated some to try and refute Chuck. His arguments IMHO come up rather short, but I'm one for a good discussion, therefore I'll consider all angles. I'll upload his PDF for you to read if interested. If what I believe can be refuted, then I'll no longer use that argument even if I knew that I could use it on the unsuspecting. Truth matters more to me than winning arguments.


I'd like to take a look. I do think Missler blew the sons of seth theory out of the water. It's also interesting how ancient mythologies talk about this idea of mortals and immortals co-mingling. And how greek gods all look like ordinary men, and so forth.

It was all good stuff, especially the portions about hyperdimensional beings. It's good to see a theologian out there handling this issue properly. Too much of christian commentary on UFO phenomena is, well, a little simplistic and embarrassing.
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2010, 01:14am by Calminian » User IP Logged

PlanosLie
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #17 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 02:01am »

I'm curious, have you been a Sons of Seth guy?
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #18 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 02:05am »

BTW, here's that PDF from Dr. Howe---> http://www.4shared.com/document/oB8r6uTj/Who_are_the_Sons_of_God_in_Gen.html
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #19 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 12:04pm »

on Jul 18th, 2010, 02:01am, PlanosLie wrote:
I'm curious, have you been a Sons of Seth guy?


No, but I've been exposed to it many years, and witnessed raging debates in bible classes, and sat through several Hank Hanegraaff rants which actually did more for my belief in the other side than anything else. The bottom line with the SOS guys is never the text but theological considerations to protect traditional views of angels.

I just browsed briefly the PDF you provided. I'll read more in depth, but right of the bat I see the shenanigans starting. Not that the guy isn't sincere, but he's already trying to say that the LLX uses the word messengers which could mean humans, etc. etc., technical this and technical that. It's this stuff that makes me roll my eyes and not take these guys serious. When you read the refutations to the angel's view it's always super technical. He actually called into to question the Job 38:4 passage on a technicality, saying that morning stars could just be those non-living giant balls of nuclear fusion in space and therefore we can't say here for sure sons of God is parallel to angels. This after he admits two very clear references to angels in the same book by the same name. But "technically" we can't be sure. And so now sons of God in Job are apparently parallel to non-living floating objects in space. Problem is, these guys make their arguments sound so technical, the silliness can often be missed.

And then of course he touched on the "sons of the living God" issue from Hos. 1:10 which is a prophetic look at the future reconciliation of God and Israel. In the N.T. we become sons of God via adoption. It's something we become, both jew and gentile and the context always make this clear.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

My issue is this. The Bible is not hard to read. It takes dedication just like reading any other large body of work, but it's not a complicated as some of these scholars make it seem.

Gen. 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days — and also afterward — when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. 5 The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Yes I realize this turns many traditional ideas upside down and makes people very uncomfortable. I realize the traditional view of angels is that they are non-corporeal beings. The question is do we conform our ideas to the text or the text to our ideas? Let the text speak. Then decide if you believe it.
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2010, 12:27pm by Calminian » User IP Logged

PlanosLie
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #20 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 12:27pm »

Quote:
The bottom line with the SOS guys is never the text but theological considerations to protect traditional views of angels.


YES!!!

I'm not naming names but there is a poster here that is an apparent SOS guy, that I have tried to show him various key points about this topic. I have given him tons of exegesis, original language etc, and he insists I have gone to outside sources! If knowing the meaning of the original Biblical words doesn't matter to a SOSer then nothing will. To me, that mindset is amazing and willingly ignorant. BTW, did you get a chance to read my blog about the Sons of God? Your thoughts? I'm still working on it and will be adding more.

Blessings...
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #21 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 12:30pm »

Quote:
Not that the guy isn't sincere, but he's already trying to say that the LLX uses the word messengers which could mean humans, etc. etc., technical this and technical that.


An observation I made about the SOS people is this, well usually. When the original language appears to support their view, they cite it. When it refutes them, they disregard it.
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xx Re: How do UFO's, aliens, and Nephilim connect?
« Reply #22 on: Jul 18th, 2010, 6:57pm »

on Jul 18th, 2010, 12:30pm, PlanosLie wrote:
An observation I made about the SOS people is this, well usually. When the original language appears to support their view, they cite it. When it refutes them, they disregard it.


You'll see that on both sides, frankly, and yes I noticed that in this article. The article you provided was from the Christian Research Journal (at least the original article), which is interesting because that's the journal affiliated with Hank Hanegraaff's show. I used to listen to him years ago when he had a couple of co-hosts. What's funny is, one of the co-hosts (if not both) held the angel view of of the Gen. 6 passage. Hank used to very rudely IMO rebuke the guy on the air, even to the point where the guy had to object to the spirit of the conversation. And then finally he dumbed both the co-hosts and went solo. But I used to listen to him try to refute the angel view to callers and he'd always go back to the idea that angels are non-corporeal spirit beings and therefore cannot have sexual relations. He would cite Matt. 22:30, “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. Now in the article you supplied, the author makes a big deal of this also. The problem is, this passage implies obedient angels, i.e. angels of God. Now the author tried to debunk this in a weird way by focusing on the "in heaven" part, but missed the entire point. Jesus was talking about the end of the age after the resurrection, after the judgement of fallen angels, in the new existence in the new heavens. These would certainly be obedient to God's laws. But this does not mean that all angels throughout all history have been obedient, to this or other laws. Not all angels are "of God." Jude seemed to understand this point well when he emphasized that these angels "did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode." This is not what God created them for. They had to go outside their given parameters. Obedient angels of God don't do this. But Hanegraaff used to harp on the fact that it was impossible somehow because of his view of the nature of angels. And I think herein lies the problem with all those apposed to this view. Angels are a very vague subject in scripture. They are not described with any precision at all, nor ever really directly talked about. They are always there, always doing things and performing tasks for God, but never the subject matter. To say dogmatically they are non-corporeal can't be justified. In fact, the mere fact that they ate with Abraham gives me the impression they are corporeal. If not, how the heck did they ingest food?? If they have or can manifest teeth mouths and stomachs, why not other thing?

Now don't want to be too harsh about this. There are good men on both sides of this debate. It's nothing to burn bridges over. But the fury Hanegraaff and others have over this issue is intriguing. I believe in my heart it has to do with traditional beliefs about angels. My suspicion is, they've been historically misunderstood.
« Last Edit: Jul 18th, 2010, 8:25pm by Calminian » User IP Logged

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